Help - what do I buy to get started recording acoustic guitar and vocals?

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prumejuice

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Hi,
Right now I'm not doing any recording and want to start. I simply want acoustic guitar and vocals, and I want to record live (both guitar and vocals at the same time), using one mic for guitar and one mic for vocals. The program I'm using is garageband. But there are so many interfaces out there, and so many mics, and I literally don't know anything about any of it besides the fact that I need an interface and mics. I'm looking at spending maybe $250-$400 on the mics and interface, and would buy used stuff as well to save money, but obviously want the best sound I can get. Could someone help point me in the right direction of what interface and mics to get? What all do I need to buy? And is there any other equipment I'd need? So in summary I just have a few basic questions:
1. Is all that I need to record acoustic guitar and vocals at the same time 1 interface, and 2 mics and mic stands?
2. Can I record both channels and both mics at the same time onto my computer with a two channel interface?
3. Can you recommend a good two channel interface to get started with? And what about mic for the guitar and vocals?

I'm open to everyones opinions! Feel free to just tell me "Buy this and buy this and you're good to go"

Thanks!
 
No, you cannot record two mics on guitar and two vocal mics with a 2 mic input AI and that rules out a lot of new stuff under £200* But why do you want to? Two mics on an acoustic are a good idea but will there be two singers, all at the same time? Then, although it is musically better as a rule to record the whole thing together it can be hard to get a good recording that way. But if 4 mics at a time is the way you want to go look out for a second hand Tascam US1800.

But you will have bigger problems than hardware friend! Unless you are very lucky your room will sound dreadful and recording TWO acoustic sources in it is about the hardest thing you can do. Forget "vocal booths" if the thought had occurred. You need swathes of sound absorbing material. Minimum would be a double duvet in front of you (behind the mic) and another behind you a good foot above your head.
You can make a supporting frame from plastic wastepipe tubing or timber if you have a carpenteering bent.

If you decide that two mic inputs is enough the Steinberg UR22 is an excellent interface for £100.

*I have read good reports of the Behringer 4 mic input AI.

Dave.
 
ecc83 said:
No, you cannot record two mics on guitar and two vocal mics with a 2 mic input AI and that rules out a lot of new stuff under £200* But why do you want to? Two mics on an acoustic are a good idea but will there be two singers, all at the same time?
Click to expand...

I think you might have misread OP's request. He only wants two inputs, mike on voice plus mike on guitar: "I want to record live (both guitar and vocals at the same time), using one mic for guitar and one mic for vocals."


prumejuice said:
1. Is all that I need to record acoustic guitar and vocals at the same time 1 interface, and 2 mics and mic stands?
Click to expand...

That's the basic requirement. One interface with two mike inputs will do. But you need to think about the monitoring side, i.e. monitors or headphones.

prumejuice said:
2. Can I record both channels and both mics at the same time onto my computer with a two channel interface?
Click to expand...

Yes. In Garage Band you would have to set up two mono tracks. One to record the first channel, the other to record the second.

prumejuice said:
3. Can you recommend a good two channel interface to get started with? And what about mic for the guitar and vocals?
Click to expand...

Dave said: "If you decide that two mic inputs is enough the Steinberg UR22 is an excellent interface for £100." That's not a bad starting point.

As for mikes, if you are just starting out check out the AKG Perception range. Maybe an LDC for vocals and an SDC for the guitar.
 
Sorry Gecks' I boo-boobed but in my defense I DID say in another thread that it was early!

+1 for the SDCs.

Dave.
 
One thing to consider if recording both guitar and vocals at the same time: bleed. Maybe that doesn't make any difference to you, but condensor mics will typically have more bleed (due to their sensitivity) than dynamic mics.
 
My .02 and keep in mind I'm green at all this, but based on my research (a fair bit now) and what I'm hearing from those who know way more:

- as gecko said, the only thing missing from your list is some way to listen to your results - either headphones or speakers (preferably "monitors" which is just a dorky name for speakers that will give you truer feedback on how your stuff actually sounds vs enhancing it as most regular speakers do). There are some quality speakers avail for $150-200 apiece that would likely suit you fine; quality headphones can be had for even less.

- re mics, you shouldn't need to spend more than $100/ea if that. The Shure M58 and M57 are both versatile and very popular/highly regarded for vocals and instrumentation, respectively.

- I would record first without ANY room treatment ("absorbing material" etc) and see what that sounds like, then gradually tack it on accordingly. "Bass traps" are often touted as the most necessary by far, but with an acoustic guitar and vocals, it should be much less of an issue for you. Add as much as you need; it may not be truckloads.

- Can't speak to AIs much but near as I can tell you can get a good one that will suit your basic needs for $100 or so.

g/l
 
mjbphotos said:
One thing to consider if recording both guitar and vocals at the same time: bleed. Maybe that doesn't make any difference to you, but condensor mics will typically have more bleed (due to their sensitivity) than dynamic mics.
Click to expand...

Generally true but the Perceptions have a 20dB pad which puts them right down with the magnetics!

Dave.
 
I think dynamics are bit dull for acoustic guitar Joe and in any case, if the OP is going to play and sing he would need a dynamic very close to the guitar and run the risk of clouting it.

With regard to treatment, you might live in grander houses than I am used to but any domestic space of about 3000cuft is going to sound pretty bad "naked" in my view.

Dave.
 
arcaxis said:
But then don't you bump up the gain on the preamp to compensate for the 20dB loss and get levels to where they're supposed to be so it's wash? :)
Click to expand...

Er? No Mark, there is no technical reason why the capacitor principle make such mics any more "room" sensitive than any other except for their ACTUAL sensitivity.

You lessen room sound and extraneous noises by getting close to the microphone and keeping the gain low. You can't do that with a conventional capacitor mic because it would not sound good, might "blast" and would probably overload many budget AI pre amps. But, put a 20dB pad on the mic, whack on a good pop shield, leave the gain TFAlone and rock and roll!

Dave.
 
One small note. Bass traps won't help a lot with tracking. Generally they are to give you a more honest playback (i.e. monitoring) I would always recommend using headphones for tracking, if only for the possibility of feedback...especially in an untreated room.

Something to consider for iso are the mike isolation devices that are usually for pulling room noise out of vocals. Placing one above the acoustic's mike (not behind) will give some isolation from the vocal.
 
ecc83 said:
I think dynamics are bit dull for acoustic guitar Joe and in any case, if the OP is going to play and sing he would need a dynamic very close to the guitar and run the risk of clouting it.

With regard to treatment, you might live in grander houses than I am used to but any domestic space of about 3000cuft is going to sound pretty bad "naked" in my view.

Dave.
Click to expand...

I've recorded acoustic wiht 2 57 clones at 9" out and had no isssues with volume. Of course overall tone is better (a little) with my Perception 220.
Not getting this 'use the pad to reduce room noise' stuff though. You're lowering EVERYTHING recorded with a pad- it's sucking 20dB off the whole recorded signal, the noise (clock ticking, traffic, room reflections) is still there.
I will usually set up a trap on either side of my acoustic recording set up - because I've got a noisy space. The clock comes off the wall and goes into the next room, the fishtank in the living room gets unplugged, I put a trap on one side for any noise coming from the old kitchen fridge which runs more than not runs, and a trap on the other side which helps with any traffic noise coming through the living room (open doorways to both kitchen and living room). Do the traps really do much? I dunno, but it only takes a minute to set them in place.
 
"Not getting this 'use the pad to reduce room noise' stuff though. You're lowering EVERYTHING recorded with a pad- it's sucking 20dB off the whole recorded signal, the noise (clock ticking, traffic, room reflections) is still there."

Yes, so then you move closer to the padded capacitor. This is how a dynamic earns its reputation of being able to "reject" room and ambient noise. It doesn't, the SMXX mics are just pressure operated diaphragms with an acoustic path that makes them directional, nominally cardiod. So too is a Perception 170. The only difference is that pressure variations are converted to electricity by a different principle. (yes I know capacitors have much lighter diaphragms and a different set of resonances but this does not help or hinder their performance re a "room".

If my take on this matter is wrong perhaps someone can explain exactly what else gives the dynamic this supposed rejection and how it works?

Then of course there are several capacitor mics on the market designed for close vocal work and these are characterised by a much lower sensitivity than the standard capacitor mic.

Dave.
 
Okay sweet, lots of this helps.

Am I on the right track for looking and doing it this way:
Guitar mic: Get a condensor microphone for guitar (Someone recommended the Cad E100S).
Vocal mic: Get a dynamic microphone for vocals (Someone recommended to me the Shure SM7B or Shure SM 57).
Interface: Someone recommended an M-Audio Fast track, another recommended the Focus Right Sapphire pro 40.

Does anyone have any comments, thoughts, or other suggestions with that? Or recommendations for a different kind of interface?

Does the quality of the interface effect the sound that much?
And can I do multi-channel recording at the same time with garageband?
 
prumejuice said:
Does the quality of the interface effect the sound that much?
Click to expand...

With the current generation of interfaces, they are probably the least of your worries if you are concerned about the quality of your sound. I expect your biggest quality issues to arise from your recording environment, recording techniques and mixing techniques.

prumejuice said:
And can I do multi-channel recording at the same time with garageband?
Click to expand...

If you are looking at a two-input interface, you will be able to get two separate channels from the interface. You need to configure Garageband to record these two channels on two separate tracks. That's as much 'multi' as you can get at one time.

However, once you have two tracks recorded, you can then record more.
 
The SM7B is a great mike, but it has a one quirk that you should know up front. The 7B (and the 7, 7A, etc) have very low gain. You will need to push your preamp VERY hard to get it to come up. There are also in-line devices that will pump it up, and some have successfully used a preamp into their audio interface to overcome. The 7B is an excellent choice, but know you will have this one obstacle to overcome. Google Cloudlifter.
 
I usually use a dynamic when I am around the sound hole. It just seems to keep the rumble of the acoustic down. If you go for two mics, I would think the dynamic (57) would do nice between the neck and the hole, and then the vocals. The vocals could use the second dynamic to minimize bleed.

Just a thought.
 
ecc83 said:
"Not getting this 'use the pad to reduce room noise' stuff though. You're lowering EVERYTHING recorded with a pad- it's sucking 20dB off the whole recorded signal, the noise (clock ticking, traffic, room reflections) is still there."

Yes, so then you move closer to the padded capacitor. This is how a dynamic earns its reputation of being able to "reject" room and ambient noise. It doesn't, the SMXX mics are just pressure operated diaphragms with an acoustic path that makes them directional, nominally cardiod. So too is a Perception 170. The only difference is that pressure variations are converted to electricity by a different principle. (yes I know capacitors have much lighter diaphragms and a different set of resonances but this does not help or hinder their performance re a "room".

If my take on this matter is wrong perhaps someone can explain exactly what else gives the dynamic this supposed rejection and how it works?

Then of course there are several capacitor mics on the market designed for close vocal work and these are characterised by a much lower sensitivity than the standard capacitor mic.

Dave.
Click to expand...

Sorry, Dave, I'm dense. I still don't see how throwing the -20dB pad on there is any different than just lowering the gain (and getting closer - or shouting - if you want a louder signal). Is it because the noise, which might have been at -30dB strength )for example) is now at -50dB and basically unhearable (but still there)?

prumejuice said:
Okay sweet, lots of this helps.

Am I on the right track for looking and doing it this way:
Guitar mic: Get a condensor microphone for guitar (Someone recommended the Cad E100S).
Vocal mic: Get a dynamic microphone for vocals (Someone recommended to me the Shure SM7B or Shure SM 57).
Interface: Someone recommended an M-Audio Fast track, another recommended the Focus Right Sapphire pro 40.

Does anyone have any comments, thoughts, or other suggestions with that? Or recommendations for a different kind of interface?

Does the quality of the interface effect the sound that much?
And can I do multi-channel recording at the same time with garageband?
Click to expand...

The Sapphire 40 is way overkill for you as you only need 2 inputs. Look at the Steinberg UR22, Focusrite 2i2 or 2i4, Presonus Audiobox, Tascam US1200 (which looks pretty good with 6 inputs possible at the $118 price at Sweetwater right now).

What is your budget? The CAD mic is $500, that may be overkill for someone starting out like you. The SM57 is not really a vocal mic (but can be usedas one). The SM58 is a vocal mic, but its primary use is for live use.
 
"
Sorry, Dave, I'm dense. I still don't see how throwing the -20dB pad on there is any different than just lowering the gain (and getting closer - or shouting - if you want a louder signal). Is it because the noise, which might have been at -30dB strength )for example) is now at -50dB and basically unhearable (but still there)?"

Mention has been made Ken of the SM7B. Now, although I have never used one I understand you practically have to kiss the thing to get a decent level unless you have Grace pres or similar?

You cannot do that to the majority of cap mics because of overload, either internally in the mic or the pre amp (even at min gain in some cases) or both and it is getting close to a mic that is critical in overcoming room effect and noises off (or spill in a band situation) . In fact if you Google "Critical distance" ref PA or sound reinforcement you will see I think where I am going.

In fact I have just refreshed my 50yr old memories on the subject with a .pdf by Yamaha. They cover CD in the context of clear, reverb busting reinforcement and feedback control. But mics is stupid, all they "know" is near and far so the principles apply just as much to recording as to PA.

I would like to point out that Yamaha, in this 400 page dissertation make no distinction of the MECHANISM of the microphones, merely their polar characteristics.

Dave.
 
DM60 said, "I usually use a dynamic when I am around the sound hole. It just seems to keep the rumble of the acoustic down. If you go for two mics, I would think the dynamic (57) would do nice between the neck and the hole, and then the vocals. The vocals could use the second dynamic to minimize bleed."

Does anyone else have thoughts on this? I watched a youtube video that said to put a condensor mic on guitar (one with either cardiod or super/hypercardiod). Any thoughts on whats better for micing an acoustic? Dynamic mic or Condenser mic?
 
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