help w/mixing, eq-ing and compressing acapella

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wturner

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My TTTBB acapella recordings lack part-clarity and, I don't know what to call it, sheen? sparkle? I'm a trained singer, so I'm confident my problem lies not in my singing but in my mixing, eq-ing and compression methods. Even my best efforts produce what to me sounds like a muddy mix in which the parts seem to be running together in a 5 voice freeway pile-up.

How can I give my pitch-accurate recordings that Take-6 or NSYNC or Boys II Men or Manhatten Transfer quality where the voices sound crisp yet blended. Are they using something I'm not? I only use compression and some reverb. Are they using chorusing or doubling or some other effect? Are they eq-ing a certain way? Help.

Setup: M-Audio Audiophile 2496 sound card, Alesis mixer, Shure SM94 Condenser mic.
 
wturner said:
Are they using something I'm not?
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Well - for sure they're not using a $250 soundcard, prosumer mixer, and a budget condenser!

Not to mention the engineering talent behind the 6-figure console!!!

And....at least in the case of Manhatten Transfer, the actual talent of the artist! (sorry, can't say the same for B2M or N*Sync..........)

;)
 
But I was looking for advice in the way of mixing, eq-ing and/or compression or other effects. But then, perhaps the difference is mainly in the price of their toys and no amount of mixing, eq-ing or compression will ever get me close to my goal. If that's what you're saying, then that's useful advise.

But even in that case, I could still use some advice in how to properly mix, eq and compress.

Anyone else?

(BTW, I completely agree with you about the relevant talent of Manhatten Transer and the others. Nevertheless, there is a common production quality among all of them that I'm looking to at least approximate.)
 
wturner said:
(BTW, I completely agree with you about the relevant talent of Manhatten Transer and the others. Nevertheless, there is a common production quality among all of them that I'm looking to at least approximate.)
Click to expand...
That was my point... the budget gear is not going to give you "that sound".... if you're already a pro engineer, you can certainly get the most out of budget gear, simply as a matter of experience -- but it still won't have the same cailbre or quality of sound.........

Bottom-line is this.... budget gear means you have to work very hard to overcome its inherent limitations - and even then you may not be able to, if the limitations are severe enough.... good gear simply takes the equipment out of the equation.......

The right mic, in a great-sounding room, connected to a great pre, placed appropriately in front of talented artists equals a great recording!

THAT'S the formula....!
 
Recording a good vocalist is very easy. It just requires a good room, mic and preamp. Get the intial tracks right and the mix is just about balance and preserving your signal quality.

The only time mix tricks are really neccessary is if the vocalist sucks. Compression and EQ are for hiding deficiencies or creating unnatural types of effects. If the warmth and sparkle is not in the raw track you cant really add it in the mix.

If you want tell us more about your tracking technique than we might be able to tell you what you are doing wrong. What type of room are you recording in and how close to the mic are you?

Is new equipment an option? An mp3 sample would give us the ability to help you more than anything.
 
Well, ok, without millions of money you have problems....and we all know the pain of a muddy mix, right? How do you fix it, tho?

I find that it is best to layer things up one by one. In this case, perhaps start with one bass voice. You want some warmth, but no 'boom', so try a boost in the 100Hz range, and cut around 200Hz. Add in the next bass voice; and try to balance them up (btw, don't have two voices sharing a frequency boost; they'll just fight!).

Keep on going like this. When you have something coherent; check the mix in Mono to be sure that it is ok (a good mix is good in both Mono and Stereo).....

Now - FX - IMO, you don't really want anything fancy. Prolly just a little reverb to allow 3d placement, and some compression. Run the whole lot throught an overall eq to smooth it. Maybe add in a *little* touch of chorus - the trouble with things that make sounds 'bigger' (chorus, flange, phasers, etc) is that you might end up with more muddiness, so use your judgement.

This sounds like a challenge - mixing five very similar sounds and trying to retain coherence is tricky, but if you layer up carefully, building the mix from solid foundations, you should acheive some good results.

One last tip - check out the N*Sync, et al records, and try to figure out how they did it - what eq, how is it panned, etc. Might be worth a try!

Good luck!
 
I record in my home office/recording studio/extra bedroom.

I record each part with the eq being the same for all. Then I try to give each vocal part its own place on the audio spectrum. For Baritone and Bass parts I cut some high end. For Tenor 1 and 2 I cut some low end etc. Tenor 3 I'll leave as is or cut both high and low end.

I use compression to even out the dynamics between vocal parts then I'll boost lead parts or cut non-lead parts in order to bring out the lead if there is a lead part.

If I were going to buy some new equipment I would buy a better mic, but I'm dreaming if I think my accountant (wife) is going to agree to a $600 microphone expenditure. Since I'd much rather have a wife than a microphone, I'm doing without the mic.
 
First off. Stop adding all that EQ. Try the parts without it and it should sound better. Never track with EQ either if that is what you are doing.

And you can get some fine vocal mics for under $250.
 
But, I thought I was supposed to give each part "its own place" in the mix, i.e., the audio spectrum. If I don't EQ, won't they all run together?

I record about 8 inches from the mic. No closer than 6 inches.

Can you recommend some fine mics for $250? (The SM94's were $179)
 
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Don't EQ unless it needs it. You probably need a little bass cut on some of the vocals but there is no reason to mess with the mids or highs unless they ABSOLUTELY need it.

Running together is only a bad thing if the parts are fighting with eachother. This usually isnt a problem when all the parts are the same thing. It's more of a problem when you have different instruments and one is starting to overlap the freq range of the other. For backing vocals you usually want them to blend together pretty well so you have a wall of vocals.

I dont know your mic so I can't say if it is the problem. The MXL V67, 93 and Studio Projects C1, C3 and the Rode NTK are all good mics at different price points.

The room you record in will have a big impact. If you are recording in a small and very live sounding room than that could be part of the problem also.
 
In addition to the other suggestions, I would recommend some subtle panning of the voices as well. Nothing extreme...No more than 20% from center in either direction. Panning will help to put the voices in thier own space more, but by keeping the panning to a minimum you'll still retain a good tight blend.
 
Thank you, yes, I do use panning. Bass in the center, T1 left, T2 right, T3 left, Baritone right. I've gone as far as 50% from top center (pointing horizontal), but upon your advice I'll cut back a little.
 
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please correct if I am wrong, I read somewhere before about how to blend vocal harmonies like Eagles.

Leave main vocal dry, maybe try to focus on mid range by cutting others a bit. Then cut some mids, lots of low mids and bottom on the background vocals, and add some chorus to them.

Good luck

AL
 
Well, here's a heretical view: less is more.

It's a capella, it ain't _supposed_ to sit in a mix. It _is_ the mix. So, all that follows here is highly opinionated- but this works for me and the folks I work with. Your mileage may vary.

I do a lot of work with a capella quartets, both male and female. The best stuff I've done to date has been to get the vocalists in their accustomed semicircular positioning in a good room, and mic them with a simple stereo pair- MS or Blumlein works best in my experience, although I've used XY and ORTF from time to time with less wonderful results. My favorite is MS for this, but Blumlein will give you a lot of the room if you have the mics and the room for it. And you _want_ a lot of the room: a capella work in a bad room really isn't worth recording, because it'll never sparkle. I don't overdub, I don't track separately, I seldom spot-mic (because the results are always disastrous), and I almost never use any artificial reboing. If the sound is right in the room, all you have to do is Do No Harm, stay out of the way, and print it! That's why I like recording live so much. it's worth seeking out a venue where the magic can happen...

A capella vocal ensemble work is truly magical, because the players need to hear and tune to each other in real time, and the room is an absolutely critical part of the sound. The players have worked for years to "blend" with one another, so *let them*: you don't want to hear N voices, you want to hear one single instrument with some interesting stereo separations and a very complex harmonic structure! Don't try to enforce artificial separation. Give them a place to work their art the way they've rehearsed it and like to hear it, put the mics in the room with them where it sounds the best, and then get out of the way and punch go. All you should need for postprocessing is a miniscule amount of compression, if any.

Sometimes (for certain style of music) minimalism is absolutely the best, and IMNSHO this is one of those cases: it _ain't_ rock and roll. I'm currently scrimping for a Royer ribbon mic for my side mic (to supplement my C3), and for an Amek 9098 dual mic pre, just for doing this sort of work...

For another amazing example of vocal work on the order of Manhattan Transfer, but more out there on the fringe, get the New York Voices eponymous album. In that case, I'm told that they mic'd up smaller subgroups, and you can hear that in the mix- but the sound is wonderful. "Come Home" was a single-take MS recording, I'm told. Tasty, and good enough to put chills up your spine... http://newyorkvoices.com/
 
When top level barbershp quartets are recorded, the most typical
setup is stereo recording ala;

1) A good sounding room with good natural reverb-rent if you
have to. Churches are a good bet, in addition to local studios
2) A two track digital recorder (DAT, computer, MDM, standalone)
3) Two omni or cardiod condenser microphones which are well
positioned (and avoiding as much as possible any EQing)
4) NO effects processing (think classical!), unless you're bringing
other instruments in.

And the recordings...sound great!
Regardless of how you feel about the material BTW.

Chris

P.S. Choice of microphones is largely dependent upon the quality
(or lack thereof) of the room you'll be using.
If appropriate, you can try out a pair of Studio Project B3's,
they're multi-pattern and run about $300/pair.
www.studioprojectsusa.com
 
Thanks Skippy!
You said a lot of things that should be helpful, including myself as
I do more and more of these recordings too.

Chris
 
wturner - check out "In My Room"
http://www.nowhereradio.com/artists/album.php?aid=1084&alid=-1

This is a cappella done at home. Recorded in a untreated basement, so it has some natural "room effect" and then both a plate reverb and chorus effect has been added.

The voices were recorded using a C1 mic into a Delta soundcard with a Mackie mixer for pre-amps. We did an intial "scratch track" where everyone sang, and then went back and did each part individually. This allowed us to "patch" tracks as necessary without having to worry about bleed from the other voices. The baritone and 1T are panned about 35% right and left, while the 2T and falsetto are panned center.

You may like it, or you may hate it, but it will at least give you a base of comparison to other "low budget" a cappella recordings.

Mike
 
Like Chessparov said: if you don't have the room, go *rent* the room. It's not in your basement. Churches *work*: big ones for 100+ voices, leetle teeny ones for smaller groups. Caves, surprisingly. Outdoor areas with big boulders and trees to create the early reflections (can you tell why I live in Colorado?) A capella needs *air* and *space* around it. It'll _never_ work in a vocal booth, through the cans. It just isn't going to happen in a vacuum. That limitation comes with the territory: that's part and parcel, with the well-trained a capella vocalist.

A capella vocal ensemble work _is_ classical music: no less so than a spectacular string quartet, or the glorious sound of a 28" orchestral bass drum with natural calf heads stuck softly with a wool beater. wooOOOoom. Sure, it's a bass drum, but it *isn't* a kick- I can't reproduce that sound with my Roland TD-10 and any amount of external processing gear. Sometimes, you need to *go to the sound*- the sound may not always come to you in the convenience of your own basement.

With a capella, the performance _is_ the key. If it doesn't gel, it doesn't gel, and there's no fixing it in the mix. I've done some adequate recordings in my living room- with a 23' vaulted ceiling, very few parallel surfaces, and a fair amount of acoustic rework. I'd like it better still with a few hundred square feet of additional diffusion in it, too. Where's that fieldstone wall when I need it? (;-) I still go to better spaces when I'm serious about the product, and I always will.

A capella is *hard*, but not impossible. The key is to remember that _the engineer does not create the sound_: all he can hope to do is *capture* it, and hopefully not fuck it up too badly! The Hippocratic oath applies: "First, do no harm".

Yes, I am passionate about this. So sue me. I've been out of the rock game for years...
 
Perfectly true... and applies to more than just a capella recording, too!

Bruce
 
Great information, friends. Thank you so much. I've read reviews of the Studio Projects C1 mic. Is it really all that people are claiming it is? If so, I'll be buying one next month.

Excuse my ignorance, Skippy, but I don't know what "MS," "Blumlein," "XY," or "ORTF" are. Would you be willing to explain?

I appreciate the advice for micing acapella groups. I'll use it when I do that. At this point, I'm multitracking my own voice for all TTTBB parts. I would appreciate any advice anyone has for that kind of thing too.

Tonight I will prep an Mp3 file of my latest project and submit it for (kind) criticism.

For some of my acapella work I also add a piano part (which obviously reders it non-acapella). Anyone have advice for mixing piano and TTTBB?

Thank you all again.
 
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