help- tips on OH placement that works well with hihat micing?

[SuaveRecords]

k question first, then the story.

is there an over head placement that works best when micing hi hats? something that will give me less phase issues( so far i didnt see/hear any) maybe a wide image? recorderman? spaced pair? xy? is there really any specific one that works best?
and question number 2; i have pg81's and MXL 603s's what would be best on hats and what would be best on over heads? i had the pgs as over heads and the 603 on my hats. that seemed to work pretty well.

k story time if you care to read. a band came in this last weekend and started to do drums, but the drummer just could not keep time. so long story short we found ways to fix this but they need to come back next weekend. this got me thinking about mic placement. i liked what i had for the most part. it was:
D2 on rack tom
D4 on flo0r tom
D6 in the kick
pg81X2 as over heads(run threw an MPA GOLD tube preamp 600 impedance)
57's top and bottom of snare
and an apex 460 as a room mic.

what i did was i left the room mic out and switched it for a hihat mic. i liked that better over all. but it got me thinking about phase, a stereo image and such so i thought id come on here and get some input.

 

[Greg_L]

If the drummer sucks, you're gonna have all sorts of problems.

Why do you want to mic the hats? What kind of music is it? I don't record a lot of bands, but I record a lot of my own stuff and I NEVER have to mic the hats. Ever.

If you want a wide stereo image, one room mic aint gonna cut it, and no overheads will sound weird and unnatural. You're gonna have to experiment with the different OH techniques and see which works the best for your drummer and room. I personally like The Recorderman setup, but that's just me. All of them work well in the right situation, and all of them can kill you with phase problems if set up incorrectly. Take your time and find the best technique for you and set it up correctly. I'm thinking you don't need to mic the hats.

 

[SuaveRecords]

and no overheads will sound weird and unnatural.

well i am and always have used overheads but i deff know what you mean lol. but ya, question... the recorderman, isnt the over head set up kinda close to teh drummer. i seen the youtube video on it and it really looked like it would intrude on a drummers playing if hes swinging away really getting into it. the"two drum sticks away" thing seems kinda close to me. i just wanna mic the hats because his crashes are so loud and "heavy metal sounding" that they dominate the overhead mix. they sound good, just loud, so i bring them down a bit and get a low hihat volume. most of wich comes from the snare mic bleed.. and that's not very pretty. i miced the hats with a 603s and it made a massive difference. sounded like a "real" drum track hahaha. im just kinda curious if theres an overhead set up that works best when adding a hat mic.

 

[Greg_L]

well i am and always have used overheads but i deff know what you mean lol. but ya, question... the recorderman, isnt the over head set up kinda close to teh drummer. i seen the youtube video on it and it really looked like it would intrude on a drummers playing if hes swinging away really getting into it. the"two drum sticks away" thing seems kinda close to me. i just wanna mic the hats because his crashes are so loud and "heavy metal sounding" that they dominate the overhead mix. they sound good, just loud, so i bring them down a bit and get a low hihat volume. most of wich comes from the snare mic bleed.. and that's not very pretty. i miced the hats with a 603s and it made a massive difference. sounded like a "real" drum track hahaha. im just kinda curious if theres an overhead set up that works best when adding a hat mic.

The shoulder mic does come in pretty close with the Recorderman, but I never hit my mics, and I'm all kinds of gangly and flinging sticks around. It's fine when set up correctly. Maybe look into the Glyn Johns set up if space allows it.

Again, I have to mention the drummer sucking. If his cymbals are too loud and his hats not loud enough, that's his playing. He's either baby-ing the hats, killing the cymbals, or doesn't know how to buy complimentary cymbals. You can't play thrash metal with a bunch of RUDE crashes and some 12" thin jazz hats. Mic the hats if you want to, and you may have to, but I really don't think you'll need to with good overhead placement and a smack to the drummers head.

 

[SuaveRecords]

The shoulder mic does come in pretty close with the Recorderman, but I never hit my mics, and I'm all kinds of gangly and flinging sticks around. It's fine when set up correctly. Maybe look into the Glyn Johns set up if space allows it.

Again, I have to mention the drummer sucking. If his cymbals are too loud and his hats not loud enough, that's his playing. He's either baby-ing the hats, killing the cymbals, or doesn't know how to buy complimentary cymbals. You can't play thrash metal with a bunch of RUDE crashes and some 12" thin jazz hats. Mic the hats if you want to, and you may have to, but I really don't think you'll need to with good overhead placement and a smack to the drummers head.

hahaha "SMACK!" i wish haha. its mostly his cymbals and his cymbal placement, cant play comfortably unless his cymbals are 10 feet high lol i donno why. but changing his playing style this soon would only make him play worse lol. but ya, a good smack couldn't hurt as well. lol