HELP!!!The Church's mixer

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Rokket

Rokket

Trailing Behind Again
They asked me to step in an set up the board for them to sound better at my church. The instrument setup is 2 acoustic guitars, one electric guitar, bass, mic'd drum kit (no mics on the toms, but 2 overheads :confused: ), and an electric keyboard. They were running everything mono, and were really amazed when I turned the pan buttons. I fear the whole board is set up wrong.
OK, now the question: the guitars are run DI from the pre amp outs to the board. Would I get a better sound and control over the sound if I mic'd the amps? Or would I get too much bleed from everything else (including 5 vocalists)? I don't have a lot of room, so I am thinking it may be too much bleed. Any thoughts?

I still have to figure out how they routed the monitors and get the stage monitors set up correctly. There is a lot of work that needs to be done, including better speaker placement. Any help I can get would be appreciated. I don't remember off-hand what brand the mixer is, but it's a 24 channel, and they pretty much have every input and output used. I think it may have 4 busses...
Thanks!
 
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One more thing:

The mixer has built in effects (echo, reverb, chorus, flanger). They have an outboard reverb unit, but are not sure if it's working or not.

I know the built in effects are crap, they clip when they are in use (without lookin, I am pretty sure they are on every channel).

They record the entire service, so I was thinking of running the outboard reverb through a buss and just taking the necessary channels through it.

Help! :D
 
Rokket said:
Would I get a better sound and control over the sound if I mic'd the amps? Or would I get too much bleed from everything else (including 5 vocalists)? I don't have a lot of room, so I am thinking it may be too much bleed. Any thoughts?
Click to expand...

If there running amps already, and running DI from them, then I don't think there would be any additional bleed.

Rokket said:
...including better speaker placement...
Click to expand...

I really like a tight cluster front and center.

HA: Helping Rokket.
 
apl said:
If there running amps already, and running DI from them, then I don't think there would be any additional bleed.



I really like a tight cluster front and center.

HA: Helping Rokket.
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Arvo! Thanks for the response!

I was thinking of doing away with the DI from the pre amp out and mic'ing up the amps. Mostly because one of the acoustics is running through this beautiful sounding acoustic amp that can't be DI'd.

They only have 2 stage monitors, so I have to stratigically place them so that everyone can hear themselves. As for the rest, they have 4 speakers all up front. The problem is that turning it up enough to balance everything shreds the heads off the people in the first few pews. I was going to move a set of them to the back and aim them toward the center of the sanctuary.

Going to be a long Saturday... :rolleyes:
 
Rokket said:
Arvo! Thanks for the response!

I was thinking of doing away with the DI from the pre amp out and mic'ing up the amps. Mostly because one of the acoustics is running through this beautiful sounding acoustic amp that can't be DI'd.

They only have 2 stage monitors, so I have to stratigically place them so that everyone can hear themselves. As for the rest, they have 4 speakers all up front. The problem is that turning it up enough to balance everything shreds the heads off the people in the first few pews. I was going to move a set of them to the back and aim them toward the center of the sanctuary.

Going to be a long Saturday... :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

I meant a hanging cluster.

HA: Clarification.
 
apl said:
I meant a hanging cluster.

HA: Clarification.
Click to expand...
Hmmmm. Can you post a pic to give me an idea of how this will look? I don't think I have ever seen this.

They do have 2 speakers on tripods... I don't think this is what you are referring to.
 
Rokket said:
They asked me to step in an set up the board for them to sound better at my church. The instrument setup is 2 acoustic guitars, one electric guitar, bass, mic'd drum kit (no mics on the toms, but 2 overheads :confused: ), and an electric keyboard. They were running everything mono, and were really amazed when I turned the pan buttons. I fear the whole board is set up wrong.
OK, now the question: the guitars are run DI from the pre amp outs to the board. Would I get a better sound and control over the sound if I mic'd the amps? Or would I get too much bleed from everything else (including 5 vocalists)? I don't have a lot of room, so I am thinking it may be too much bleed. Any thoughts?

I still have to figure out how they routed the monitors and get the stage monitors set up correctly. There is a lot of work that needs to be done, including better speaker placement. Any help I can get would be appreciated. I don't remember off-hand what brand the mixer is, but it's a 24 channel, and they pretty much have every input and output used. I think it may have 4 busses...
Thanks!
Click to expand...


Yo' Rok, most def'ly mic those amps!!!
 
Rokket said:
By the way.... what is HA??? :confused: :)
Click to expand...

HA stands for hidden agenda. Some people think I have one and I'm trying to make their life easier.

HA: Explain HA, poke fun at my detractors.
 
I agree with apl, close-micing the amps shouldn't be a problem. As for the rest, it sounds like speaker placement is gonna be probably the biggest improvement you can make, and will depend on the patterns of the boxes and the space you have to work in, as well as resources for things like hiring someone to hang them if you need to.

I would try to avoid having the speakers at different distances from the audience or firing at each other. That generally leads to more problems than it solves. If you have the time, this is a good article on the basics of loudspeaker arraying in the church (good stuff in general, but directed at people setting up systems in churches, where speech intelligibility is usuall the #1 priority). It's a little dry, but the stuff about coverage angles and using the 6db downpoint of a speaker's vertical coverage to hit the far end while not killing the front rows may interest you.

The general idea is this: Speakers are specced as having degrees of coverage, horizontal and vertical. 90 horizontal and 50 vertical are pretty common for two-way boxes. Those numbers are the 6db downpoints, the angle at which the sound drops off 6db. If you raise a speaker and tilt it down at the audience, making sure the close rows are outside the 6db downpoint angle, they will hear the sound at -6d. The farther people, inside the rated coverage field, will hear the sound louder. But that's OK, since they are farther away.

You can also do this with multiple speakers. The basic idea is to have the ones that hit the front rows be quieter.


http://www.peavey.com/support/technotes/soundsystems/loudspeaker_array.cfm

Peavey has done thousands of HOW installs, and Marty is their main guy. They have an excellent book called Celestial Sound, available free to houses of worship.
 
Just wanted to add, again sort of agreeing with apl...

The center cluster is pretty much accepted as one of the best ways to deliver speech, depending on the room. It is a single point source, so comb filtering is pretty much eliminated, among other things. However, many people feel music sounds kind of unnatural when it comes only from a center cluster. Lots of places opt for a center cluster for speech and a split left/right setup for music. As an example, on a recent tour U2 ran their PA with a mono center cluster just for Bono's vocals, and ran the rest through a regular-type PA setup.


The other big drawback of a center cluster is that it needs to be hung, and setting it up right takes some know-how. This may not be possible depending on the available space, cash, proper speakers for the purpose, or even the building's historical status.

I bet if you pay attention to the basics of speaker arraying outlined in that article and the other one on their site called "Power Shading and More" you'll be able to improve the system by a lot.

http://www.peavey.com/support/technotes/
 
boingoman said:
I agree with apl, close-micing the amps shouldn't be a problem. As for the rest, it sounds like speaker placement is gonna be probably the biggest improvement you can make, and will depend on the patterns of the boxes and the space you have to work in, as well as resources for things like hiring someone to hang them if you need to.

I would try to avoid having the speakers at different distances from the audience or firing at each other. That generally leads to more problems than it solves. If you have the time, this is a good article on the basics of loudspeaker arraying in the church (good stuff in general, but directed at people setting up systems in churches, where speech intelligibility is usuall the #1 priority). It's a little dry, but the stuff about coverage angles and using the 6db downpoint of a speaker's vertical coverage to hit the far end while not killing the front rows may interest you.

The general idea is this: Speakers are specced as having degrees of coverage, horizontal and vertical. 90 horizontal and 50 vertical are pretty common for two-way boxes. Those numbers are the 6db downpoints, the angle at which the sound drops off 6db. If you raise a speaker and tilt it down at the audience, making sure the close rows are outside the 6db downpoint angle, they will hear the sound at -6d. The farther people, inside the rated coverage field, will hear the sound louder. But that's OK, since they are farther away.

You can also do this with multiple speakers. The basic idea is to have the ones that hit the front rows be quieter.


http://www.peavey.com/support/technotes/soundsystems/loudspeaker_array.cfm

Peavey has done thousands of HOW installs, and Marty is their main guy. They have an excellent book called Celestial Sound, available free to houses of worship.
Click to expand...
Thanks a bundle! I am reading it as soon as I post this!
 
Rokket said:
Thanks a bundle! I am reading it as soon as I post this!
Click to expand...
OK, that was informative. Seems that the speaker placement may be OK, but may just need a bit of tweeking. They have all 4 speakers up front, but are fed as "front" and "rear" on the mixer. Is this OK? Or do I change it.

There are some smaller wall mounted Bose speakers near the back of the church, and I am not sure where they are fed from.
 
Rokket said:
OK, that was informative. Seems that the speaker placement may be OK, but may just need a bit of tweeking. They have all 4 speakers up front, but are fed as "front" and "rear" on the mixer. Is this OK? Or do I change it.

There are some smaller wall mounted Bose speakers near the back of the church, and I am not sure where they are fed from.
Click to expand...

If I was gonna guess, I'd say someone set them up like that at some point, or was going to. Either they didn't like it or never got around to finishing the job. It seems like you shouldn't trust any labels you find there, trace all the lines yourself. :p

Is it two sets of stereo outs labelled front and rear, or two mono sends? From your first post it seems like two sets of stereo outs. If you get the system all set up right, you probably won't need both sets, as all the speakers can get the same stereo feed. If you decide to hang a speaker as a center vocal fill, it might be handy to have the volume control for that on it's own feed at the mixer. If you get those Bose dealies working, maybe you could use that extra feed for those. Those might be handy for covering the back of the church. You'll have to delay them so the arrival times match up with the main PA sound. Anything will work, as long as it has enough frequency range. There is a club near me that has a Boss DD5 guitar pedal as it's speaker delay for the restaurant side.

In any case, you should note how the system is hooked up now, change it to the way you want it, and take notes and relabel everything correctly.
 
boingoman said:
If I was gonna guess, I'd say someone set them up like that at some point, or was going to. Either they didn't like it or never got around to finishing the job. It seems like you shouldn't trust any labels you find there, trace all the lines yourself. :p

Is it two sets of stereo outs labelled front and rear, or two mono sends? From your first post it seems like two sets of stereo outs. If you get the system all set up right, you probably won't need both sets, as all the speakers can get the same stereo feed. If you decide to hang a speaker as a center vocal fill, it might be handy to have the volume control for that on it's own feed at the mixer. If you get those Bose dealies working, maybe you could use that extra feed for those. Those might be handy for covering the back of the church. You'll have to delay them so the arrival times match up with the main PA sound. Anything will work, as long as it has enough frequency range. There is a club near me that has a Boss DD5 guitar pedal as it's speaker delay for the restaurant side.

In any case, you should note how the system is hooked up now, change it to the way you want it, and take notes and relabel everything correctly.
Click to expand...
I think they are stereo outs, but it's hard to tell. In headphones I am getting a stereo mix, but I can't hear it in the speakers. I believe they rigged it up for the right side to be the "front" and the left to be "rear".

Either way, I am probably going to spend a good hour tracing cables and leads.
Thanks for the heads up, boingoman!
 
Anyone else have any tips before Saturday? That's the big day.
I wish I could remember what brand the mixer was. It probably wouldn't hurt to download the manual and go through it first. It's been awhile since I messed with anything bigger than my Yamaha MG10/2.
 
apl said:
http://www.commtechsys.com/images/mk_cluster.jpg
Click to expand...

For a cluster like that you will need a high ceiling.

I would not use any guitar or bass amps on stage. Go DI on every thing that you can.
The reason I say go DI is so you you can keep the stage down. (I know DI E-guitar sucks...Use a cab sim)
Are the drums in a GOBO, If not ask the drummer to play with rods.
Keep the stage volume down.
Get the drummer (and bass player if you can) on headphones.
If you can get 3 or 4 monitor mixes that would help a lot.
1 for the Drummer and Bass player
1 for the Guitars
1 For Keys
1 For Vocals

If its a small church I would keep it in mono.

I know some of this sounds like bad advice but you want to keep the stage volume down for worship.
It's going to take a lot of adjusting for everyone to get used to the lower stage volume but it will work.
 
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