Help recording everything!! Tracking using DI or not and more

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rgraves

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Hi all,

I've been working at recording a bunch of stuff with a very limited amount of
equipment and am trying to determine what some good upgrades would be and/or
the best way to record some stuff.

Right now I am recording hard rock or metal stuff that has a variety of sounds (strings,acoustic guitar,
classical guitar,keyboards etc) and I want to try and get the best set up that I can afford.


Here's a couple questions I have (after using the search button of course)

Is there a concensus on the best way to record acoustic and classical guitar between
micing or doing direct in (or both)? I always thought it was best to just record with a
nice condensor, but a couple people told me they think direct in is better...but they
also had little credibility to me, so I figured I'd ask here.

Also, with keyboards, is it advisable to do those with a direct box? Oops, let me clarify
I have an EMU 1820M which has direct in capability, so my question is: is there any
advantage to use a direct box if I'm only a couple feet from my soundcard preamp and can
plug into that directly?
And I have a grand that is in excellent shape, but I have never tried to record it because
I don't have experience micing a grand, but is it common to use a keyboard or a sound sampler
for grand piano sounds since it's easier or clearer, or is it always better to use
the real deal?


Recording electric guitar. Having some trouble getting this to sound just right. A lot of the
work I'm doing is with very high gain for metal and such, and there seems to be
a fair amount of noise. Now, we are using an ESP guitar with active EMG-81 which are supposedly
the quietest pickups available, but still has a fair amount of noise. When we use a
strat without noiseless pickups, it's just unacceptable.
So, my question on this is two-fold. First, is it true that it is better to use a DI
for guitar and then run it through an amp later?? Does this help with noise? How would I
do that if I wanted to? Just play the track back and put the line out of my EMU to the
line in of the amp? (That's probably right...)
Also, is it more likely that I am recording with too much gain, and should I just turn the gain down?
If that is the case, then how do I get it to sound more distorted after I track it??
The gain simulators that come with Cubase don't seem to sound very good at all, I can't imagine
people actually use those?
In these various examples should I be using the emulated out on my Marshall amp, or just
the line out.


My Equipment is EMU 1820M pre/soundcard
Marshall AVT 150H with emulated out to 1960 4x12 cab
shure 57's
shure 58's
AKG C-12 VR
Neumann M - 147
Yamaha S90 88 key
Kawai grand
Roland TD-20
Cubase SX

Sorry to pile so many questions together but just trying to get this stuff sorted out
as soon as possible.
Thanks for any help!
 
rgraves said:
Is there a concensus on the best way to record acoustic and classical guitar between
micing or doing direct in (or both)? I always thought it was best to just record with a
nice condensor, but a couple people told me they think direct in is better...but they
also had little credibility to me, so I figured I'd ask here.
Click to expand...

Think of the direct signal as another mic, if you will. It gives you more options. Given a choice, I would always choose a condenser over direct for acoustic guitar (unless I was going for a specific direct sound). But if you do both, you have more options to create a mix between the two. If you don't end up using the direct at all, no harm done. You could even put two different types of mics on the guitar and go direct, and then you have three options to mess with. One condenser would certainly be the easist though.

Also, with keyboards, is it advisable to do those with a direct box? Oops, let me clarify
I have an EMU 1820M which has direct in capability, so my question is: is there any
advantage to use a direct box if I'm only a couple feet from my soundcard preamp and can
plug into that directly?
Click to expand...

If you're able to get a good signal by plugging the keyboards direct to the EMU, then that should be fine. I've plugged keyboards into line ins before on my MOTU 828mkII with no problem (I forget if I ended up running them at
-10dBu or +4dBu)If you feel like you're having issues, then you could get a couple DIs to run into the mic ins.


And I have a grand that is in excellent shape, but I have never tried to record it because
I don't have experience micing a grand, but is it common to use a keyboard or a sound sampler
for grand piano sounds since it's easier or clearer, or is it always better to use
the real deal?
Click to expand...

I would see this all depends on teh sound. If you feel you have a sample that is working for you, then go with it. If not, go ahead and mic the piano. A couple common techniques are two condensers under the hood, low and hi. Or a PZM mic taped under the hood. Or a combination of the two. Experiment with keeping the lid closed or open as well.


So, my question on this is two-fold. First, is it true that it is better to use a DI for guitar and then run it through an amp later?? Does this help with noise? How would I do that if I wanted to? Just play the track back and put the line out of my EMU to the line in of the amp? (That's probably right...)
Click to expand...

Well, a passive DI includes a transformer which helps eliminate noise, but the normal DI/amp setup looks like this: Guitar into DI IN, DI Thru to Amp, DI Output to Record interface. That way you're recording the clean signal from the DI, but still sending to the amp. What's coming from the amp would be the same however. But this way you could mix the direct and the amp sound.

Also, is it more likely that I am recording with too much gain, and should I just turn the gain down?If that is the case, then how do I get it to sound more distorted after I track it??The gain simulators that come with Cubase don't seem to sound very good at all, I can't imagine
people actually use those?In these various examples should I be using the emulated out on my Marshall amp, or just
the line out.
Click to expand...

I would say you might benefit from reducing the gain. There are plenty of amp simulators out there that might get you to where you want to be.

It's also possible you're picking up noise from the lights. Are you familiar with the phrase "We've got a little 60 cycle going on here"? It may not be an issue, but do you think you're hearing any buzz/hum that is not just the distortion effects?

I hope I've said something useful in there.
 
1. i wouldn't DI the classical stuff, especially not if you have decent mics to use

2. turn down the gain a couple notches on the electric guitar, and get multiple tracks down. it won't sound all that heavy/distorted on the individual track level, but when you stack 3, 4, or god knows how many tracks on top of each other, the distortion adds up really quick

3. go ahead and take a DI signal of the guitars, as well...a lot of top-notch engineers/albums mix mic'ed signals with the DI'd ones to keep some more clarity in the tracks. a notable example would be lamb of god's ashes of the wake, which combined mesa and marshall amps with a clean DI signal. and yes, you can record a DI signal, then run it back into the amplifier and mic that, but you'll need either a re-amping device or a passive DI box to match the impedances. i tried using the unbalanced mono output on my mixer the other day to reamp, and all i got was assloads of feedback.

4. if you have a grand piano, and want true piano sounds, mic that bitch up! open up the lid, and throw a couple condensers in there...one over the hammers on left, the other over the right. play around some with placement to cut down on phase cancellation(3:1 rule here!), and take into account the fact that the piano lid will reflect some of the noise back into the mics.

as far as recording keys/synths...i dunno man, i don't ever mess with stuff
 
Oh man, you guys are awesome, thanks for all the tips!!

OK, here's the one thing I never quite understood: The whole thing with multiple tracks of guitar and whatnot. Do you mean just take the 1 track of recorded guitar and copy and paste it to another track like 3 or 4 times? And if that's what you mean, do you offset each one by a few milliseconds here and there or something??

How little gain might be wise to start with? I mean, when I play solo guitar I set the gain to 10 and still wish it would go to 11 or something, I know that probably sounds like crap in the mix but help me out a little more here.

As far as the lights...I don't really think it is that, there is almost no noise with a very low gain setting, like 3 or 4 for example running through some EMGs. Through a strat or something with humbuckers there can be a fair amount of noise even with a low gain setting, and tons of noise with a high gain setting. Only if you turn the volume knob on the guitar up, if it's off the noise is gone or minimal. I really would like to clean the noise up a lot. I have a seperate tracking room, the monitor is in the main room, so I guess the only thing I haven't tried is recording in the dark...but I'd be willing to upgrade or buy something or whatever to get rid of or reduce the noise problem. Could be specific to the amp too, not really sure. All my stuff I bought new, there's no second hand stuff, so kind of doubt there is anything wrong with the equipment.

Thanks again for any help on this last issue!
 
If you're using the line out of your amp to record distortion guitar the level of distortion will be much harsher (if that's a word) than if you mic'd the amp. I got stuck on that one for several weeks before I tried it with the mic and it worked out much better. Especially for playing metal, the speakers add a bit more tone to the mix and you are able to get that crunch most metal heads love. But remember this rule of thumb, always use less distortion when recording than you'd use playing live.

If your not fimiliar with micing techniques, you need to be patient and move the mic around until you get the sound you want. Try for the outer edges of the speaker then back it away for 3-6 inches for starters.
 
Thanks for the reply,

actually I do mic currently with a SM57 and the tone and sound is good, but overall just in general there is definately a bit of noise, kind of like when you turn a radio up real loud with no music and there is just noise.
I was hoping there was a way to get rid of that. With less gain, there is less noise, but I assume that when I go and compress or add gain later the noise will still be there, but I'm not really sure.

I was hoping for more clarification on that whole adding more tracks thing. I've heard several posts where people talk about getting more distortion or heavier distortion by using 3-4 tracks of guitar. But I assume that they don't record the same track 3-4 or more times (unless they are doing different harmonies of course), but do they do anything special or just duplicate the track exactly using a copy function, and is there any offset in time that people would look at doing??
 
you can cheat, and do the copy/paste thing...maybe bump a couple tracks back 1-2ms, notch/bump some eq's at different frequencies

or you could go old-school on it, and physically record a number of takes, preferably with different amps and guitars. combining the same composition with a variety of tones is a great way to get some awesome sounding guitars.

and speaking of amps, is the noise coming from the amp itself, or the guitar? also, is it evident during the performance, or when there's nothing playing? if it's only noticeable when nothing's being played, a noise gate will take care of that problem.
 
No, it is somewhat evident even during playing, it's like a little high frequency noise on top of the music. Of course it doesn't really show up in the mix with everything else, but I just get the feeling it shouldn't be that way. Especially with the strat there is definately a noisy sound that is there with the music of the guitar. I only have 1 amp, but several guitars...and it's always more noisy when I turn the treble up on the amp, so it's some kind of high frequency noise.
 
I used to do the copy/paste thing with my guitars but after posting pretty much the same question, started just doing multiple takes. It sounds fuller, better to my ears. I'll use 3 or 4 different guitars in a song, or I'll use one guitar and just change the EQ, or switch pickups. Usually, my panning ends up all over the place, sometimes hard right/left, sometimes 30/35, basically wherever it sounds best when I'm mixing it all in.
Trust your ears, Grasshopper.... :D
 
yea totally

i've learned that the VERY BEST thing you can do when panning instruments is to close your eyes...it's way to easy to get caught up in the #'s and %'s and all that. just trust the ears, and all will be good

and as far the noise stuff goes...have you tried plugging any of the guitars into someone else's amp?
 
Wow man that was a great take! Can you give it to me again?
Holy shit man I thought the first one was good...Hit me one more time...
You're killin me in here....Three great takes...This will sound amazing.

MULTIPLE TAKES......MULITPLE TAKES.....MULTIPLE TAKES
 
hmm, whenever I've heard the multiple take thing it sounds like different takes almost like when you try to double vocals with different takes. I mean of course there is a time and place for doubling vocals, but it makes them stand out, and I want it to sound like just 1 guitar.
 
As long as the player is playing tightly enough it should all blend in together quite well without neccessary sounding like a whole bunch of different takes slapped over each other.. but you do need to be playing pretty damn tight.

The advantage of doing multiple takes is that you can turn down the gain a bit, taking out some of the noise, but the multiple takes will thicken it back up, and make it sound kind of like the gain is higher than it is, minus the noise.

Also if you are only recording one distorted guitar and then panning it centre, it isn't going to sound so good. I usually use 2 left 2 right. It doesn't really sound like lots of takes as such, it just sounds thicker and fuller. Its a good idea also to pan the guitars slightly differently I fins. eg. hard left, hard right, 60% left, 60% right. (that just an example, just go with whatever works for you.). Also EQing the guitars slightly differently so they don't fight with each other so much is a good idea.
 
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