Help Recording DI Distorted Guitar Tones

[ChubbyCat]

Every guitar tone I record is muddy and horrible. I've been trying to record rock/metal music with distorted tones using my guitar for a long time now. I have an Ibanez AZ47P1QM that I plug into a Scarlett Solo's 2nd input with the "inst" button enabled, running Logic with neural DSP digital amp plugins. Despite how much all of this has cost, I still cannot manage to get a half-decent distorted tone no matter what I try with amp adjustments, EQ, etc. Would getting a DI box fix my problem? Playing lead melodies/solos usually sounds fine, as well as clean tones. However, any kind of chord, if even mildly distorted, always ends up sounding like fuzzy, unintelligible noise. I've been led to believe that because the Scarlet Solo possesses the "inst" button, a DI box shouldn't be necessary; however, clearly something is wrong. Should I just get a better audio interface? A better audio interface plus a DI box, maybe? Also, I've noticed that there are both $20 and $200 DI boxes on Amazon; would a $20 one even be worth it? Any help regarding anything I've said would be greatly appreciated.

 

[TalismanRich]

I don't know if a DI box is going to give you much vs just going into the Scarlett instrument input. A DI box's function is simply to convert an unbalanced high impedance signal from your guitar to a low impedance balanced microphone level signal. Higher priced ones may have other functions, like a ground lift or polarity inverting switch, but those are just "extras". They don't really change the basic tone.

The two main contributers to a guitar's sound are going to be the guitar and the amp, be it an actual physical amp/mic, an amp modeller, or a plug-in. If you are getting decent tones from the lead melodies, but "fuzzy, unintelligible noise" from chords, then you should first try turning down. Chords are much louder than single notes, so chords will drive your amp sim into massive distortion. What amp models are you using? How high is your gain settings? Try turning down the gain until the chords sound ok. If you need to kick up the sound for a solo, then you hit the boost pedal with either a clean boost or some drive. I don't use amp plug-ins myself, having both amps and a Strymon Iridium, plus and old PODxt, so I can't make any kind of recommendation for settings on the Neural DSP models. They all seem to be high gain stuff.

There is also some technique issues that can help. Instead of banging out 6 note barre chords, try 3 or 4 note chords. You can concentrate on the higher notes, and leave out the muddy bass notes. Try using double stops for the guitar part and let the bass and drums fill out the bottom.

The are just the first approaches that I would use. If you can, post a short MP3 of the tone you are getting that you don't like. Then maybe we can work from there.

You might also watch this video to see if it helps.

 

[ChubbyCat]

Ive attached screenshots of all my settings as well as an mp3. Ive got the input gain on my scarlet basically at zero as well. Ive played around with everything but I can never get something I like out of these plugins. But Ive listened to lots of other people play using these plugins, and it always sounds amazing when they do it. I mean, the demo for this specific archetype Nolly amp sim is one my favorite things Ive ever listened to on youtube. Whenever I play through my actual amp, my tone sounds awesome, but I just don't have any equipment to record that, so Ive opted for the digital route. It just always comes out sounding very strange to me. I don't know how to describe it. Just sort of fuzzy, compressed, low quality-ish. I don't know what Im doing wrong, but hopefully you can listen and agree/understand that something is clearly wrong.

 

[TalismanRich]

First, if you're saying it's too compressed, turn off the compressor. Do you really need the OD pedal going into a metal amp? I hate to say it, but it sound pretty much like the Nolly videos on Youtube.

It seems that the plug-in comes with some presets. If you turn off the pedals and play with the presets, do they sound like this? Metal amps are, by their nature, spitty and harsh.



I'm really not sure where to go here.

 

[ecc83]

Now, I am NO guitarist! I am also deaf past 2kHz (that TWO folks!) but yes, that was not nice. Even I was getting the harsh "fizz". What people with good hearing made of it GAKnows!

A few things I have been told by a talented son,
You can't distort full chords. The music theory bods here will know, something about "fifths"?

Most often when recording E guitar peeps have it TOO distorted. Touch of reverb maybe?

You mention a DI box? Maybe try that but buy a really cheap passive box. The low input impedance and crap transformer might soften some of the fizz. Worth $25 or so but make sure you get one with a ground lift switch because they can be useful in other ways.

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/de...43-sidekick-passive-di-box-1-4-in-ts-to-xlr3m I am assuming USA? I would make it a condition of posting that peeps tell us WTF they are!

Dave.

 

[PorterhouseMusic]

Dude - the distorted tone in your clip is not far at all from the tone this guy is getting in this youtube video.



I mean... if "archetype nolly" is what you're shooting for - you're definitely in the ballpark - to my ears anyway.


Unless I'm mistaken - and it doesn't seem that I am - the bridge pickup in your guitar is a relatively "high gain" or "hot" pickup. That will increase what ever sizzle/gain that you're already getting from the amp. If it's too much - dial that gain back further.

 

[Papanate]

Ive attached screenshots of all my settings as well as an mp3. Ive got the input gain on my scarlet basically at zero as well. Ive played around with everything but I can never get something I like out of these plugins. But Ive listened to lots of other people play using these plugins, and it always sounds amazing when they do it. I mean, the demo for this specific archetype Nolly amp sim is one my favorite things Ive ever listened to on youtube. Whenever I play through my actual amp, my tone sounds awesome, but I just don't have any equipment to record that, so Ive opted for the digital route. It just always comes out sounding very strange to me. I don't know how to describe it. Just sort of fuzzy, compressed, low quality-ish. I don't know what Im doing wrong, but hopefully you can listen and agree/understand that something is clearly wrong.

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Your clip isn’t bad at all - I would try some different IRs - Back down the Presence and Treble knobs - Boost your Midrange a bit - and dip your bass a fraction - dump the EQ on your Channel - add a tiny bit reverb - and drop your gain a little - and then no listen in isolation- but with drums and bass (Keyboards?) - you might be surprised how guitars are setup for the studio.

 

[Papanate]

I'm really not sure where to go here.

Well this guy has a drop tune 7 string - but the general idea is there - he has cut sonic space for his guitar - the drums and bass have their space too.

 

[Papanate]

Now, I am NO guitarist! I am also deaf past 2kHz (that TWO folks!) but yes, that was not nice. Even I was getting the harsh "fizz". What people with good hearing made of it GAKnows!

2kHz? That’s brutal.

You mention a DI box? Maybe try that but buy a really cheap passive box. The low input impedance and crap transformer might soften some of the fizz. Worth $25 or so but make sure you get one with a ground lift switch because they can be useful in other ways.

The Scarlett if already giving him a DI - so no need there -

 

[ecc83]

2kHz? That’s brutal.

The Scarlett if already giving him a DI - so no need there -

No NEED but could help. The Solo has an input Z of 1 meg as indeed one would expect. A cheapo passive DI box will be no higher than 200k and could be as low as 100k (depends on the traff and the mic pre)
That low impednace is going to cause some "tone suck" i.e. loss of high frequencies. In any case a DI box with a ground lift is always a good thing to have around. The OP might get hiself a little amp (and a modest valve jobbie could solve a lot of his problems) that would give him the option of splitting the guitar signal and having a DI and mic recording.

The box I linked to also has a switch to allow line levels. Might be handy if he pals up with a synthist!

Dave.

 

[Slouching Raymond]

I don't know what Im doing wrong, but hopefully you can listen and agree/understand that something is clearly wrong.

Yeah, it is bad.
I would start by ditching those pedals, and try to get a good sound from just the amp.
If that virtual amp does not give a good sound, try some others.

 

[pipelineaudio]

Ive attached screenshots of all my settings as well as an mp3. Ive got the input gain on my scarlet basically at zero as well. Ive played around with everything but I can never get something I like out of these plugins. But Ive listened to lots of other people play using these plugins, and it always sounds amazing when they do it. I mean, the demo for this specific archetype Nolly amp sim is one my favorite things Ive ever listened to on youtube. Whenever I play through my actual amp, my tone sounds awesome, but I just don't have any equipment to record that, so Ive opted for the digital route. It just always comes out sounding very strange to me. I don't know how to describe it. Just sort of fuzzy, compressed, low quality-ish. I don't know what Im doing wrong, but hopefully you can listen and agree/understand that something is clearly wrong.

This sounds about what I'd expect, lots more highs than you would normally get on a cab recording except in the most pristine conditions (which is how these IRs are often made). POSSIBLY some intonation stuff going on, but really, with a low pass or a different impulse, I would have ZERO trouble using that tone in a modern metal mix

 

[pipelineaudio]

that would give him the option of splitting the guitar signal and having a DI and mic recording.

People often don't realize that the way most DI's are wired, the thru jack provides absolutely no protection from impedance loading and tone suck and is often the reason "wow bro, this DI is so warm man!" because its completely barfed out the actual sound of the pickup, and there's no need to low pass anything

 

[rob aylestone]

I have hung on to 2 ancient BSS BR116 powered DI boxes as they seemed to have hardly any loading on the circuit they sniff from. Strat players would spot the HF change with my other boxes, and in fairness I could too. They were all happy with the 116.

 

[ecc83]

People often don't realize that the way most DI's are wired, the thru jack provides absolutely no protection from impedance loading and tone suck and is often the reason "wow bro, this DI is so warm man!" because its completely barfed out the actual sound of the pickup, and there's no need to low pass anything

Well, physics innit! When you link a passive DI to an amp as well as using the XLR output, you are loading the guitar with an extra 1meg (no excuse for an amp not to be) so the input Z is necessarily reduced. Best case without link ~200k results in about 160K. I doubt anyone could hear that change.

For an active DI with a FET input, Z in can be 1 meg or much higher. It is beer into water to arrange the input resistor such that the 'link' jack switches in a load and the resultant is still close to the 'magic meg' but when an amp is jacked in the switch opens and the impedance becomes that of the DI AND the Z in of the amp. That can still be close to 1meg.

Of course, the mnfcts of the DI box can have no control over the load of an unknown amp nor any idea of the sensitivity of any particular guitar to loading. Add the cable and it is easy to see why nobody seems to have bothered!

Dave.

 

[Papanate]

Well, physics innit! When you link a passive DI to an amp as well as using the XLR output, you are loading the guitar with an extra 1meg (no excuse for an amp not to be) so the input Z is necessarily reduced. Best case without link ~200k results in about 160K. I doubt anyone could hear that change.

For an active DI with a FET input, Z in can be 1 meg or much higher. It is beer into water to arrange the input resistor such that the 'link' jack switches in a load and the resultant is still close to the 'magic meg' but when an amp is jacked in the switch opens and the impedance becomes that of the DI AND the Z in of the amp. That can still be close to 1meg.

Of course, the mnfcts of the DI box can have no control over the load of an unknown amp nor any idea of the sensitivity of any particular guitar to loading. Add the cable and it is easy to see why nobody seems to have bothered!

Dave.

With a DI into a Scarlett You are essentially double loading the input - and if your Guitar Cable is exhibiting Capacitance you need a new cable (unless that’s part of how a type of sound is achieved.)

 

[ecc83]

"With a DI into a Scarlett You are essentially double loading the input" Yes, for an active DI the Z will drop to 500k. But this only has the full effect when the guitar's VC is set to maximum. Back it off even a dB or so and the things get much more complex.

Then a fair middle ground for pup inductance is 5H. Load that with 1 meg and the response is down 3dB at 32kHz (keeps the bats happy!) Load at 500k and the 3dB point shifts to 16kHz, now audible if you are under 20 and female but won't be reproduced by any guitar speaker I know of!

But you might have a guitar with 10H buckers? Now the 500k load will start to chop at 8kHz but that is still well down on the output of most git speakers.

Of course, passive guitars usually have more than one pickup and tone pots and capacitors, in short a complex mess that cannot really have its sound predicted but I maintain that putting another one meg across MOST guitar outputs will make very little audible difference.

Dave.

 

[DrewPeterson7]

Ive attached screenshots of all my settings as well as an mp3. Ive got the input gain on my scarlet basically at zero as well. Ive played around with everything but I can never get something I like out of these plugins. But Ive listened to lots of other people play using these plugins, and it always sounds amazing when they do it. I mean, the demo for this specific archetype Nolly amp sim is one my favorite things Ive ever listened to on youtube. Whenever I play through my actual amp, my tone sounds awesome, but I just don't have any equipment to record that, so Ive opted for the digital route. It just always comes out sounding very strange to me. I don't know how to describe it. Just sort of fuzzy, compressed, low quality-ish. I don't know what Im doing wrong, but hopefully you can listen and agree/understand that something is clearly wrong.

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Just curious, if you look at the DI tracks alone, without the amp sim on them... where are your waveforms peaking? what do they look like?

I know some of the earlier Scarlett iterations had some trouble with clipping on input, especially with hot humbuckers, and while I don't have a good monitoring chain at my disposal here at work, your signal is certainly VERY distorted. My headphones aren't nearly good enough to tell the difference between an "ok" tone and a "good" one, but for the genre it doesn't really sound obviously terrible, so I wonder if your DI is just too hot/possibly clipping a little.

 

[Old Music Guy]

You might also watch this video to see if it helps.

Great vid. I have a TASCAM 16x08 and had no idea about the gain knob.
BTW: I would kill for the tone he has on his solo! (Notwithstanding the great reverb and very subtle echo)

 

[elly-d]

Mic an Amp? Always much better if you can.

DI-ing gives a really crappy EQ to your guitar, put an EQ plug in on your channel before the Virtual Amp. and maybe afterwards too.