Help please!

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Change of POETS

Change of POETS

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My client would like the drums on this track to be "wider" and I think he's crazy.

The drums are running through compression already to get more punch, and frankly, they used sub-par samples in my opinion. I've told him if I bring the drums up any more, we risk distortion as the low end is very heavy already.

This is his exact request:

That you turn up the drum track 1-2 decibles, and put a chorus effect on it( right now its got the punch its just still thin) you dont have to addjust the LowEnd frequencys just put somekind of plugin on the drum track that makes them a little wider.

I'm at a loss... anyone have any ideas how I can please my client, and not ruin the song?

Here is a 256kbps MP3 of the song:


Thanks.

-Brian
 
The guy hired you to do this for him. To me that says that he has acknowledged that you are more knowledgable about the matter. Therefore, if he doesn't want to take heed of your advice then there really is one choice...

I haven't been able to listen to the mp3 but from what you are saying, doing what he wants and not ruining the song could well be 2 mutually exculsive things.

I'd say do as he asks you, and then show it to him. If he doesn't like it then you have proven your point. If he does like it...well thats his deal I guess.
 
The guy paying the money is the boss. Ideally the guy with the money is smart enough to let the experts he hires do their thing without interfering. But that is very often not the case. The bottom line is that he is the one paying the bills, so he can have it his way.

However, and this is very important: if you disagree with him you *must* express your opinions. Which it sounds like you already have. If you don't have an opinion or express he is not getting his money's worth out of you.

But ultimately, you need to *make it work* however he wants it to work. That can be a challenge, but is also where a lot of learning comes into play.
 
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Well, I've expressed my opinion thoroughly, and the client still insists I turn up the kick. I know for a fact it will distort, and I'm also going to lose more headroom because of it, which means I'll have to turn the track down some before mastering it, and I won't be able to achieve as high of an RMS value like he wants in the end.

I wish artists would just be artists, and let us do our jobs. If they were right, why didn't he mix it himself? Sometimes I hate my clients.
 
Change of POETS said:
Well, I've expressed my opinion thoroughly, and the client still insists I turn up the kick. I know for a fact it will distort, and I'm also going to lose more headroom because of it, which means I'll have to turn the track down some before mastering it, and I won't be able to achieve as high of an RMS value like he wants in the end.

I wish artists would just be artists, and let us do our jobs. If they were right, why didn't he mix it himself? Sometimes I hate my clients.

COP, not to be unsympathetic( more like pathetic :eek: ) but......................

BE QUIET ! JUST MAKE IT LOUDER!

LOUDER! I"M THE CUST./PRODUCER/"ARTIST" AND I WANT IT LOUDER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


LOUDER WIDER BIGGER BETTER




What a country!!!!!!!!!!!! :D :D
 
lol...

You'd think all these people were from Texas. ;)
 
I don't think the drums in this mix are nearly loud enough, and they DO need to be a bit "wider".

You should maybe be listening to what this guy has to say a little bit more.

When you provide a "service" to people, check some of that thin skin and ego at the door.
 
Ford Van said:
I don't think the drums in this mix are nearly loud enough, and they DO need to be a bit "wider".

You should maybe be listening to what this guy has to say a little bit more.

When you provide a "service" to people, check some of that thin skin and ego at the door.
Maybe you could suggest "how" to make them wider?

There are 6 tracks with kicks and snares embeded in them, so I have no manual control over them separately. That's the fault of the producer, and the client doesn't want to pay for the time it would take for me to separate them all.

So, I summed the drums, ran them through an aux bus and compressed them a bit. They're already .039% clipped as is.

So, how would you suggest I make them "wider"...?
 
One more suggest:

Try gain (+) on bass drum "kik frequencie" (1 khz or above)

Ciro
 
What the hell are you even talking about when you say the drums will "distort" or "clip" if you turn them up? ? ?

Ooh boy. Um ... Poets, I'm going to bite my tongue hard right now, which is difficult for me to do. :D

Poets, in the world of mixing, when we refer to a particular track as being "turned up" in the mix, it's not to be taken literally. In other words, it doesn't mean you must physically, literally turn those tracks up.

What it means, in reality, is ... that particular track needs to be a little louder in relation to the other tracks. In this particular instance and on this project ... all you have to do is turn every other track down by 1 or 2 dbs, and you will have accomplished the same thing as turning the drums up by that amount. Minus the clipping and/or distortion.

An even simpler approach would be to simply turn the master volume down a few dbs so that you can safely bring up the volume of the drums ... but that sounds like it might be a little too complex for you to grasp at this time, so I wouldn't want to confuse you. Now as for this whole "wider" thing, you don't have much choice but to tell them that there isn't anything you can do if it's already submixed. Sorry, my friend. You give me submixes, then it is what it is. Give me the original tracks, and I'll make it as wide as the grand freakin' canyon.

I'm just dying to say something else, but I promised myself I would be nice to people this week. Let's just say that ... if you're worried about the drums clipping ... then don't clip them. Why are you deliberately clipping your submixed drum tracks? Don't. Stop it. Please.

.
 
Chess - your tounge is bleeding. Nice job on restraining yourself.

For a song that isn't my favorite genre, it's a pretty decent tune. I agree with your client about what he wants, and with everyone who said it's your job to give it to him. I'm a little less clear on what you have to work with.

"There are 6 tracks with kicks and snares embeded in them, so I have no manual control over them separately."

What does that mean? Can you elaborate on what is on the 6 stems?
 
If the drums are clipping you've got to turn them down, it's that simple. Then you just turn everything else down more so that the drums are louder in relation to the rest of it. Then later, if you really must have more volume, you can put a digital limiter on it and squash it all a bit more to squeeze some more volume out.

There are a number of ways to make something seem wider. It's a little hard to know exactly what to suggest since it's not really clear what you are dealing with regarding the six tracks. I assume they are loops, but are they all going all the time, or do they alternate?
 
to my ears the dums are presently very distorted. If you can bring all the levels down that would be a plus then adjust the drums,maybe kill some low end, to fit more to their liking in the song. Waves has a s1 imager that is ikind of cool. I have experimented with it abit, may be worth a try. You can shift the percenption of the stereo image with it.
 
Cop,
Tell them I said they have to re-mix it, or else................
 
chessrock said:
What the hell are you even talking about when you say the drums will "distort" or "clip" if you turn them up? ? ?

Ooh boy. Um ... Poets, I'm going to bite my tongue hard right now, which is difficult for me to do. :D

Poets, in the world of mixing, when we refer to a particular track as being "turned up" in the mix, it's not to be taken literally. In other words, it doesn't mean you must physically, literally turn those tracks up.
I've been a mixing engineer for a mere 6 years. I understand everything you've presented. My mix is peaking around -12 dbs in the DAW. When the client is pushing me for LOUDER LOUDER LOUDER the drums become distorted, so now they want more drum, but they don't want to sacrifice the LOUDER LOUDER LOUDER. Follow me?
What it means, in reality, is ... that particular track needs to be a little louder in relation to the other tracks. In this particular instance and on this project ... all you have to do is turn every other track down by 1 or 2 dbs, and you will have accomplished the same thing as turning the drums up by that amount. Minus the clipping and/or distortion.

An even simpler approach would be to simply turn the master volume down a few dbs so that you can safely bring up the volume of the drums ... but that sounds like it might be a little too complex for you to grasp at this time, so I wouldn't want to confuse you. Now as for this whole "wider" thing, you don't have much choice but to tell them that there isn't anything you can do if it's already submixed. Sorry, my friend. You give me submixes, then it is what it is. Give me the original tracks, and I'll make it as wide as the grand freakin' canyon.
Once again, you haven't come close to confusing me. The master fader is already brought way down. My mix is no where near clipping. The clipping comes into account during the mastering of the track as they beg and plead for more volume, when I simply can't give it to them.
I'm just dying to say something else, but I promised myself I would be nice to people this week. Let's just say that ... if you're worried about the drums clipping ... then don't clip them. Why are you deliberately clipping your submixed drum tracks? Don't. Stop it. Please.
.
Again, nothing is clipping in the mixedown. In the master, it is, because the client wants it LOUDER. I can't make it LOUDER without the drums distorting and clipping. The client is apparently ok with that... But now, they want even more.
 
Robert D said:
"There are 6 tracks with kicks and snares embeded in them, so I have no manual control over them separately."

What does that mean? Can you elaborate on what is on the 6 stems?

The drums are all submixed. 6 separate tracks with different kicks on them, and all of them have a snare in the file as well. I assume it's all MIDI production, but the producer didn't separate kick from snare like he should've.

So if I make the kick louder, the snare is louder as well. Could I supress the snare with a compressor? Probably... but they're already summed to an aux bus being compressed as is. I don't want to overdo the compression.
 
jmorris said:
to my ears the dums are presently very distorted. If you can bring all the levels down that would be a plus then adjust the drums,maybe kill some low end, to fit more to their liking in the song. Waves has a s1 imager that is ikind of cool. I have experimented with it abit, may be worth a try. You can shift the percenption of the stereo image with it.

I tried the S1 imager on the summed kicks. I couldn't achieve much with it... :(
 
Change of POETS said:
Again, nothing is clipping in the mixedown. In the master, it is, because the client wants it LOUDER. I can't make it LOUDER without the drums distorting and clipping. The client is apparently ok with that... But now, they want even more.

Have you tried turning up your monitors? Seriously, put in some earplugs and show them what loud is. It sounds like you have your monitors turned down and the track turned up.
 
Hey Poets,

I apologize, as it seems I misunderstood the intent of your question, originally.

I was actually kind of confused at first, because the quality of your mix didn't seem like it would have came from someone who didn't know some of this rudimentary stuff. :D You do good work, obviously.

Having been in similar situations that you're currently in ... first off, I would say the most important thing to do is to keep your composure. From the tone of your post, it seems like there's a degree of urgency to this, and you really want to be able to give them what they want and still have a good mix. And that's good.

But keep in mind that most musicians are basically turds. :D Or at least the ones that work with me. I'm a musician, and I'll freely admit I was once a turd. Now that we have that out of the way, remember that you were hired to mix, I'm assuming, and not master. So what would be so wrong with explaining to them that you may have reached the limits of your capabilities? That you consider yourself a very competent mixer ... but merely an adequate mastering engineer at best. And their music is SSOOOO GOOOD, that you just don't feel that you can do justice to the greatness that is their music in that regard.

That way, you can just pass the baton to someone else and say : "Here, you deal with it."

Now if this wasn't an option for me, the next thing I personally would do would be to pull out the multiband compressor. If the beat is distorting, it isn't very likely that it's distorting accross the frequency spectrum. More than likely, it's a particular frequency band that is the culprit, and I would further guess it is the very low / sub frequencies just to make a wild guess.

If you can work a little magic with the multiband, in theory you would be able to bring up the overall volume on the whole beat while still keeping the offending frequency range in check so it doesn't distort. This is probably what a good ME would do anyway.

Lastly, when someone tells me they want something louder in the mix, and it's already unbelievably loud, the first thing I'll generally do is EQ it differently; specifically, I'll zero in on some midrange frequencies that the human ear is very sensitive to. This will raise the "perceived loudness," sometimes by a drastic amount, without actually having to raise the actual loudness at all. This is good, economical use of headroom. Making something sound louder without chewing up any additional headroom is money, in the mixing world. Any time you can do that, you're going to make it that much easier for the Mastering guy to get a louder mix.

Any time you've got any element of a mix that is very loud, but sounds like it could still come up ... it means that you're wasting valuable headroom on something that's not making the mix sound louder. It's just eating up headroom.

.
 
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