Help Needed With MIDI Sync Using MTS-30

M

Mark7

Well-known member
I'm trying to record a MIDI sync tone to track 8 of my 388 and then get it to tell my RX8 to play when I hit play on the 388 but the RX8 seems to be having none of it. Does anyone know what I'm doing wrong?

I have the following set up.

RX8 MIDI Out to Tascam MTS-30 MIDI In
Tascam MTS-30 MIDI out to RX8 MIDI In
MTS Tape Out to 388 Track 8 Buss In
388 Track 8 Buss Out to MTS Tape In
RX8 Stereo Outs to 388 Stereo Buss In (for live monitoring of drum machine)

I've read the manuals for both the RX8 and the MTS-30 and I can't see what I've done or not done.
 
So are you even having trouble getting sync tone tracked on track 8?

If not, what level did you track the tone at?

Any issues with dropouts on track 8?

dbx is off on track 8, yes?

I know these are all rudimentary questions and you likely already addressed them, but it wasn’t clear in your post so I want to button up where we are actually at with the problem.
 
I think I'm getting the sync tone recorded but the playback isn't doing what I expected.

Am I misunderstanding what FSK/SMPTE does?

I recorded at something like -3 but the playback seems to be at 0

Hard to say if there are any drop outs on a 30 second experiment but I don't think so

The DBX defeat switch is engaged when it's set to on?
 
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I don't suppose there's anyone here who just happens to have an MTS-30, a Yamaha RX series drum machine and a tape deck who can make an instructional/demonstration video for me?
 
Apparently the RX8 has three sync modes - internal, MIDI and FSK. It should respond to SPP messages over MIDI, but it might be necessary to set it to use MIDI sync first as it might ignore everything else if it's set to internal sync.

EDIT: It's worth mentioning that there are several standards.

SMPTE is the professional timecode format. It's digital data, but also refers to the standard of encoding that data in an audio stream. Unless I'm gravely mistaken, this can be transmitted via MIDI using the MTC standard (MIDI Time Code). SMPTE can get interesting because it supports multiple frame rates: 24, 25, 30 FPS and 30 FPS with drop frame. It was designed to synchronise audio to film or videotape, but it will happily synchronise two audio tape decks or a MIDI sequencer (using MTC).

However, the MTS-30 does not support either SMPTE audio coding or MTC MIDI timecodes.

The other main standard is FSK with Song Position Pointer. I don't know much about this because I use SMPTE and MTC myself, though my timecode unit supports SPP as well. However, I understand that FSK is the audio format (I know the ZX Spectrum used Frequency Shift Keying to store programs on cassette). SPP is the MIDI messages, containing the number of beats since the song started.

The MTS-30 supports SPP, and your drum machine should be able to lock to an SPP MIDI stream too. By the sound of it, it's even possible to send it the FSK audio directly and have it synchronise itself without the MTS-30 being used. It might be worth trying that to try and figure out where things are breaking down. You could also try recording the FSK data onto an (uncompresed!) digital recorder to see if that works.
 
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Do I need to program a complete song into the RX8 first? Only I was hoping to just loop one pattern and then overwrite it later.
 
Mark7 said:
Do I need to program a complete song into the RX8 first? Only I was hoping to just loop one pattern and then overwrite it later.
Click to expand...

I don't know, but that makes sense given that everything I've ever seen about tape sync is about synchronising the linear position of the song rather than providing just a clock pulse or something to lock to. I would try that - make a short song with a couple of patterns and see if the sync behaves itself then.
 
Well, I tried it with a song I had programmed on my other drum machine (an RX21) and... The numbers in the MTS-30 display just aren't advancing at all. It stays stuck at 001.
 
You know, I'm beginning to think that Yamaha electronic instruments were deliberately designed to be incompatible with anyone else's equipment. It shouldn't be this hard to record a time code.
 
Mark7 said:
I think I'm getting the sync tone recorded but the playback isn't doing what I expected.

Am I misunderstanding what FSK/SMPTE does?
Click to expand...

I think you are.

Setting up sync between two machines isn't the same as setting up machine control between them.
IOW...you can generate sync and have it read, but the actual "control"...the ability of one machine to tell the other when to stop/start...that's a different thing.
I don't think your MTS-30 can tell the RX8 when to start/stop...that's something you might have to program into the RX8 with MIDI commands.

There are devices that are able to send machine control info...and ones that are able to accept it.
I can hit play on my DAW, and my tape deck will start play...BUT...it's all being coded and translated via my Timeline sync box.
Just like you need drivers for a given DAW interface...there need to be "drivers" that know how to talk between machines. My Timeline has a "driver" that talks to my Otari tape deck. If I hooked up another deck that the Timeline didn't have a driver for...nothing would happen, even though the Timeline was passing the actual "sync" signals between the machines.

That MTS-30 and RX8 are like from the early days of MIDI and sync and all that...so again, you can send sync from the tape to the MTS-30, to the RX8...but I think you need to set up a trigger at the RX8, when to start/stop the playback in the RX8...probably a MIDI command of some type that you can program in the sequence. Something that will be like...when "X MIDI sync code is read" (at what desired timeline point)...then "Start playback".
Maybe it's something else...I'm not familiar with those machines...unless the RX8 just goes into play any time it gets a sync signal...???...which doesn't make sense, because again, sync signal is not the same as position sync...if that makes any sense.

So here's my question....what are you trying to do with the RX8...get it to play so you can record the drum pattern on the tape deck...or do you want to have it playing along with the tape deck but not recording to it?
If it is the former...then forget all the sync stuff, just put the tape deck into REC and then hit play on your RX8. Record the drums first, then record your other tracks following the drums.
If it is the latter...then you're back finding that "trigger" for executing play/stop on the RX8.
 
I want to have it playing along ( just a simple four bar beat) without recording it. Then when the song is finished I hope to be able to add a fuller drum part
 
I don't know if you will be able to have sync while running the RX8 in a 4-bar loop.
Sync time is continuous...the loop would mess that up.

And again...triggering the RX8 to "play along" may have to be programmed with MIDI code at the RX8...IOW, tell it at which point in time in needs to start with the sync code as its reference point.

What kind of "fuller drums" do you plan to add...from the RX8, or miking an actual live kit being played?
 
Just fills and stuff on the drum machine. The kind of thing that gets in the way of putting the basic tracks down if you're trying to do it by guess work.

What I want to be able to do is program a simple 4/4. 3/4, whatever, beat just to keep time to. But obviously when I've finished working on the other parts of the song (vocals, melodic and harmonic instruments) I don't want just a repetitive 4/4 going all the way through the track. So I need to be able to sync a more complex arrangement on the drum machine up with what's already on tape without having to do it manually.

It's quite hard to explain.

Incidentally the RX8 does have a built in tape sync via an 8 pin DIN on the back marked "Cassette" that connects to a tape deck via dual RCA jacks. But I don't have one of those and I'm not even sure I could get one. No guarantee that'd work either.

There are seven jobs in MIDI mode. These are

  1. Channel Message On/Off
  2. Receive Channel
  3. Transmit Channel Assign
  4. Note Assign
  5. Receive Bulk
  6. Transmit Bulk
  7. Echo Back (this last one acts as a sort of ersatz MIDI through)

Hopefully you'll know what all those mean.
 
Yeah, again, if it were me, I'd try to get full-song sync to work first and then worry about trying something more exotic afterwards.

Looking at the manual. It can either accept SPP via MIDI, or FSK input via the 8-pin cassette interface. Either mode would work, though obviously you'd need the cable for the cassette interface (and nobody seems to have the pinout to make a new one, but a tech may be able to reverse-engineer it...).
If the sync mode is set to MIDI it'll lock to an SPP input from the MTS-30. If it's set to TAPE, it'll lock to an FSK signal from tape. It can also stripe FSK via the cassette output. If you can figure out an appropriate cable that might be the simplest way - recording and playing back the RX8's FSK signal from the tape - if there's any doubt about the MTS and RX8 being able to communicate via MIDI.
 
Any ideas how to set the Transmit and Receive channels? I assume they should be different? Should I use the "All" or "One voice per channel" option in the Transmit Channel Assign category?
 
The transmit and receive channels are for communicating with an external sequencer or controller via MIDI. They won't affect sync, and they are usually set to the same channel.
The idea is that you can attach two synths to the same MIDI port, either using a splitter or the THRU port to daisy-chain them.

This would make both synthesizers respond to the same notes, so you'd have them both sounding at once. To avoid this you can make it so that the first one only responds to channel 1, and the second one only responds to channel 16 or something. Often there is an OMNI mode which makes it respond to all channels. That's easier to setup but a problem if you need to send the MIDI signal to two (or more) synthesizers.

On a multitimbral workstation like a Triton or something, it has a massive amount of polyphony, so you can make the same machine play back e.g. drums, lead, bass and pads all at the same time under control of a computer or hardware sequencer. For that you'd have the same machine listening to multiple channels, but doing each part with a different channel to keep them separate, e.g. drums on channel 10, lead on 1, bass on 2, pads on 3 or something. (Channel 10 is often reserved for drums)

Anyway, that's a digression. Useful to know but not relevant to synchronising things.

The Transmit Channel Assign thing seems to be about assigning specific voices to specific channels. Without reading the entire manual or having access to one of the machines, I can only guess, but I'd assume that this allows you to set it up it so that if you hit the TOM1 button it sends note messages on channel 1, CRASH sends on channel 2, RIDE on 3 etc.
 
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