Help mixing some Bluegrass

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powderfinger

powderfinger

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Alright, any shared knowledge as to how to record bluegass and mix bluegrass would be greatly appreciated.

My brother's a banjo picker and we've been playing a little lately, so I decided I wanted to learn how to record and mix some bluegass.

This is a one take performance just to have some rough stuff to mix. The performance could obviously be tightened up in some areas, so I'm looking for ideas as how to get the best mix seperation for a recording such as this.

I used three mics. A MXL 93V for the main vocal mic. And an octava 012 on the acoustic, and another one on the banjo. We were playing in pretty close proximity, as we needed to share the vocal mic. There was a lot of bleed on the mics. So again, any ideas how to better track stuff would be great...as well as mix comments.

"Blue Ridge Cabin Home"
http://www.nowhereradio.com/artists/album.php?aid=1642&alid=154
 
Hi Drew,
Sounds good,your brother can really pick man!

I'm listening on headphones but what I heard was,the strumming on the guitar could be a little different.

Needs more of a flatpick to it.
Like a straight down/up with a hammer-on in between.

Your brother was doing it in the beginning.

Since it's only 2 instruments,your the whole rythym section,I think it needs to more defined.


Your guitar sounds great BTW,really nice tone.

Banjo sounds a little thin,mabey it's mic placement,or it needs a low/mid boost to match the guitar tone,or mabey some low cut on the acoustic.

DTB would know!

This is a really good live recording,sounds like just what it's supposed to be,two guys sitting around jamming.
Cool of you to do it with your brother.

I think the best part of it was the harmonies,perfect!

Very fine stuff,
Pete
 
Man, I wish my brother could play...anything.

I bought him the sweetest acoustic guitar in the world, and now I just want it back, lol.

Dude, I have no idea how to mic a banjo or anything...I just wanted to tell you that I thought this kicked ass. :D

Your guitar sounds really good for a live thing too...
 
You know, there's a specific (folksy) term called "brother harmony," which just talks about the closeness of family harmonies, usually based on similar speech patterns.

I agree with Muzeman, that's the winner on here...sorry I couldn't be more help
 
very cool for a one take live deal.. the banjo playing was pretty sweet.. the vocal harmonies were good too.. maybe pan the banjo and acoustic a little out of each others way, if possible.. the banjo sounded further away than the acoustic.. great picking. I'll leave the mix comments to the acoustic folks.. nice to be able to do something like this with your bro.. good listen..
 
Bluegrass has a rhythm all of it's own don't it man? I tried it a couple of times and felt awkward as hell! I do think you need to experiment with mic placement on the banjo, although I wouldn't have any ideas where to start. Just wanted to chime in and tell ya it's good to see family members playin together. As much as I love bluegrass, I wish I could play it. Good job, and good luck.


bd
 
Hey there...songs loading. I'm reading ahead this time.

I get a really good banjo sound by micing with a 57 right at the bottom of the neck where the body connects. But not in front, under pointing up at the drum edge from directly at the side. The back of the banjo works well to, right at the saddle from the side, you know lined up with the body?

Anyway, cool song. I love bluegrass.
If you want a true bluegrass sound it would be gathered around one omni mic.
I like the low singer's character in this...sounds almost tipsy.

This is going into my rotation, thanks.
 
muze - i'll definitely try messing around w/ some different rhythm techniques....thanks for listening as always

chris - thanks for giving it a listen....always appreciated

sabbath - i hear you on the panning issue....i tried different pannings and eq'ing, i'm still searching for a sound where there isn't as much competition for the sound....

bdbdbuck - thanks for taking the time

jake - i should try some of those mic placements....would doing one omni mic like that imply that it would be a mono recording? i guess most traditional bluegrass records are though
 
Yep, mono all the way baby. Just get the loudest instruments in back and get the singers mouths closest to the mic.
 
powderfinger, as you now know, and will find out even more, bluegrass, especially live, or group picking, is a bitch to record and mix. I've tried a bunch of things. Single mics for each instrument, and mics for vocals. This works fair, but if the players don't know how, or won't, work the mics for effect, as to volume during breaks and during vocals, then the mix will suck because of the bleeding. And as you have found out, the close proximity is needed for vocals, and for each picker to be able to hear the other. You can imagine a banjo or a fiddle, and how loud they are, so they have to be close to the other instruments to hear them. Have you ever seen Del McCoury perform? Now I know they don't do this all the time but I saw them play with one mic. A big old condenser type (couldn't tell what kind). Del would sing into it and as each instrument would take their turn everyone would rotate clockwise to be in front of the mic. They would all lean in for chorus and background vocals. I think the key is that the instruments were just loud enough to know they were there except on the breaks, when they cut on thru. I've tried other combos on mic'ing and have come up with what I believe is the best for our music. I have 2 V67 mics attached to the ceiling about 5' apart, about 7' high, and they are angled inward so the front of the mic is facing down and outward. And a 603s in the center of these hanging straight down at the same height. Now as you know, cause you've heard a few of our jams, there's still bleeding (and there will always be) but the total sound isn't too bad. The best thing about this is seperation. I can then mix the v67s left and right, and the 603s up the center. There's no problem with the bass cause to picks up in all three mics. The lead vocals normally just step up a little, and the background vocals pick up all over. It's not "Rounder Records", but it works for us. The seperation is the key. The fiddle on one end and when I play the banjo (rare) I'll be at the other end. Now I have a little mixing power. I can raise or lower either one by volume or by fader. The guitars are normally no trouble with the mics that high. I'll usually just step up a little for the break, and I use a Martin, so it's plenty loud. Anyway, I know this is lengthy but you asked. he he he he he

I'll post a picture of my mic set-up after Wed nite jam, cause I need'em down tonite.

I hope I helped a little and I know my situation is different cause we normally have 4-5 pickers and sometimes 1 extra singer. And then there's Bob the builder beating on the bongos and my wife shaking the egg thing. Well that's another situation. he he he he

later.
Dan
 
I think dtb's concept is a good one for this type of recording. I would add that, when you are playing bluegrass, or any acoustic music for that matter, without a bass, you need to capture the low end of the guitar. I'd like to see another mic positioned with that in mind. At least, I would split the track with the most prominent guitar and, on one of the split tracks, play with the eq and compression to maximize the low end while being careful to avoid mud.

Part of the problem doing anything like that with this particular recording is that the guitar has no bass line and is otherwise not being played bluegrass style. I suggest you listen to some Doc Watson or Flatt & Scruggs or the like: bluegrass guitarists usually pick a bass line on the beat and then strum on the off-beat.
 
very good add-on Long Island type dude, the bass in bluegrass is a must. Or at least bottom end from the guitar/guitars. It's one reason we use an electric bass. It carries thru the other instruments. It's the one common link thru a tune where any multitude of instruments can be breaking all at once. I did see a bluegrass band a few weeks ago that played plugged in, and their sound was as clear as I've heard. Had a great little pa system and just two vocal mics. They didn't even have monitors, being outside. That would be one route to go for recording at home. You could play the tunz together and sing as loud as you want, then go back and do the vocal tracks seperately.
 
Pass the mountain dew!! I don't know why, but I've always loved bluegrass. This was fun. Liked the instrumentation. Fun banjo part. All the instruments sit pretty well I thought.

Vocals have some pitchiness in spots. Harmonies sounded sweet though.
 
dtb - great post, thanks for the insight....definitely post the pics of your mic setup, i'd like to see that.....one of my brother's favorites is john hartford....more specifically we are going for a mix similar to his aereo-plane album......it's hard to tell how exactly it's done, because it is definitely all live, but there is great seperation in the mix which makes me think that it wasn't recorded in the traditional bluegrass style........thanks for the help

LI_Slim- i definitely know what you're saying about the playing technique, and i was actually purposely avoiding the traditional bass picking guitar style...as my brother's playing is quite traditional, i thought the mix between traditional and non traditional would sound cool

TripleM - thanks for checking it out
 
cool to see you off into a traditional thing man.
I like that stuff, its fun to play and educational too as far as leaning how, when, when not, and consistency. I wish I had a "big red" here to play some bass on with that.
dtb is right on it.
I been around a couple of those kinda sessions, with a condenser in the middle , or a "fan" of 3 to 4 mics at about 4 ft x 5ft high. The solo person at that feature moment, either singing or playing, steps out with one foot and turning, leans a bit toward the mic and then steps back in place when finished for the next picker to step out. Cool looking ettiquette they have. but its logical like dtb was describing.
 
fbd90969.jpg


here's my present mic set-up for recording on wed. nites. I made this out of pvc pipe and quest hand-tighten fittings. works fine, but may change to metal conduit for strength. the center pipe can be changed to any length as well as the down pcs. which can be extended downward if we sit in chairs. the v67 mic holder's threads didn't match the quest fitting but was close enough to thread itself on the soft plastic of the fitting with a little force.
 
toki - thanks for checking it out....i appreciate the tips

dtb - thanks for posting the pic....very helpful......when mixing how far out do you pan the outside mics? all the way or just part of the way?
 
good question. It kinda depends on the tune. If it's a fiddle song I'll keep the fiddle toward the center, whichever side he's on, and take the other side maybe 25%-50%. If it's a good lead vocal tune with 3-4 chorus vocalist, I'll go 75% L and 75% R. It kinda depends on the tune, the night, and who's there as to how many pickers. I'd say maybe an average of 75% is normal. It really doesn't sound too much different from 75% to 100%. I've tried it many ways. One thing I do sometimes when we take breaks is let, say the fiddle player, play with the fader on the track he's on. It kinda gives them an idea about how to work with the mic and the other instruments. Listening back as a group helps everyone. You can hear when, in a certain tune, where you may need to back off or bump it up. It really helps the lead vocal. David has a smallish, low volume voice, but sings his tunes with the greatest feeling. He's learned to get his ass up as far as under the mics, while having to lay back on his mandolin, because it's just a loud barking ax. And he's also the shortest dude. he he he. What a combo. And Steve has a huge church choir lead voice and can be 5-6 feet away. He doesn't play an instrument so that works well. It's an ongoing trail an error thing, and I know the fellows get tired of me changing shit, like where they stand or whatever. But when they come over the next week, and I hand them a cd with about 10-15 tunz from the week before, all mixed and eq'ed with a little tiny bit of compression so I can boost the volume, I'm a hero.
 
thanks for all the help dtb....i'm going to try a few setups over the course of the summer and tap on you for some constructive critiques........recording like this, is it possible at all to get a nice subtle reverb on the vocal without creating too much mud in the mix? i'm sure w/ good equipment, a nic dry mix would be great, but w/ my current setup i feel like i need a little verb to give the vocal some life....which in turns creates a mess w/ the other instruments
 
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