Help me point out my weak link in my chain

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malcolm123

malcolm123

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Im trying to improve my recording chain. I starting to think I may have to step up the gear to do so.

Current Recording Chain:

Playback from Sonar>Motu2408 (adat)>Mix in TMD4000>Set Level on Buss 1/2>Send from TMd4000> Wavelab on Adat 1/2 Stereo (via Motu)

This works just fine and sounds pretty good, but Im sure there is a way for it to sund better. I was thinking that maybe wavelab could be a weak link with the summing and all. Or maybe the Motu is a weak link. Im just looking for something better. I guess a way to describe it is something smoother sounding.

WOuld I benefit by getting a Masterlink or something. Or what if I get a Benchmark DAC1 and send the digital signal from the TMD4000 to the Benchmark and record it with wavelab?

oh, and I want to stay digital.

All comments and help appreciated.

Thanks
Malcolm
 
I'd say add a Lucid GenX6 to clock the MOTU and anything else that will accept an external wordclock. A noticable improvment.
 
Malcolm123,

Im a little confused you said recording chain but then outlined your playback chain?

The DAC-1 should be the box that drives your monitoring, and that should be driven by your computer. I guess your weak link would't be Wavlab. The Motu probably needs a master clock to drive your PC and Digital mixer as well. If each device is running off its own clock you will having image blurring and other little problems including clicks and pops. Almost all DAW software has Summing issues that can be unsatifying. If you dont have a master clock that is where you should spend your money. A master clock will help everyone speak more clearly as far as device to device communications.
Wavelab is more than adequate to handle a mixdown, even more so than the masterlink, well unless your pc is a 486 vintage ;). Before you get DAC-1, get a clock, I didn't see one mentioned in your list?

SoMm
 
Son of Mixerman said:
Malcolm123,

Im a little confused you said recording chain but then outlined your playback chain?
Click to expand...

LOL. That is the chain that I use to playback>Mix>record. sorry.


The DAC-1 should be the box that drives your monitoring, and that should be driven by your computer. I guess your weak link would't be Wavlab. The Motu probably needs a master clock to drive your PC and Digital mixer as well. If each device is running off its own clock you will having image blurring and other little problems including clicks and pops. Almost all DAW software has Summing issues that can be unsatifying. If you dont have a master clock that is where you should spend your money. A master clock will help everyone speak more clearly as far as device to device communications.
Wavelab is more than adequate to handle a mixdown, even more so than the masterlink, well unless your pc is a 486 vintage ;). Before you get DAC-1, get a clock, I didn't see one mentioned in your list?

SoMm [/B]
Click to expand...

Haven't got the DAC-1 yet. Im considering it though.
I monitor with the tmd4000. sonars plays back through the Motu which is clocked up with the 4000. The motu sends 24 channels of Adat to the 4000 for seperate channels. I then mix in the 4000 and send the final out on buss 1/2 back into the pc (wavelab ) via the motu 1,2 (adat) stereo ins. If this is making sense.

Oh, the master clock is the Motu (internal). I lock the tmd4000 to it via one of the 4000's internal Adat interfaces.

All digital devices are clocked at 24/44.1. The only time I dither is in the L2 right before I burn a CD.

let me know if I need to add more info.

thnx

Malcolm
 
Oh SoMm


I have been running the clocking like this for years.

If it's not right, then I never knew it. I have had problems with clocking when I first got the digital console, but I thought I had fixed them when I set the Motu for internal and locked the 4000 to it. If the motu is not a good device for clocking then i could do just the opposite or I think my Motu MTP AV could serve as a Master Clock.

thanks

Malcolm
 
Ok,

I read the old threads on Clocking and learned a few things.
I guess the main thing I learned is that clocking can affect the quality of audio. I assumed that it was mainly for syncing digital signals based on bit rate ( Maybe ). but anyway, I have always read were people were using 75ohm coaxial cable to clock devices. Sh@t , I even had one built for me but never used it because my digital devices would clock up and play just fine.

So my clock method has been like this for years:

Computer> Motu 2408 (set for internal clock) > Tascam TMD4000 ( locked to the motu via one of the internal Adat interfaces).

I didnt see any readings were clocking was done using Adat.
I also read were it's good to seperate Audio and Clocking..

Have I been wrong the whole time by clocking like this?

I always thought my sound quality was good, but maybe it can be better.

Thanks all ,, Im still finding my way.

Malcolm
 
I don't know too much about the Motu clock, but I would check the specs on the ADAT interface. You would be better off using the TM-D4000 AES outputs into an RME or Lynx2 them monitor the outputs of those. Some devices are more clock friendly than other. I know that sometime devices are more apt at being master than slave...go figure. Make sure your AES clocking between all the devices. Is it possible your driving a 75 Ohm S/SPDIF with a AES-3 75 Ohm connection? I think getting a Lucid GENX6 clock would be more stable for driving multiple devices than the internal Motu clock. Better clocks tighten up your digital significantly. Ask around to others who finally went to high quality external clocks.

SoMm
 
Son of Mixerman said:
Is it possible your driving a 75 Ohm S/SPDIF with a AES-3 75 Ohm connection? SoMm
Click to expand...

Naw, thats no the case. I simply have 3 adat interfaces in the tmd4000 and 3 adat or tdifs (or combo) for the motu.

sh@t, I just set the Motu for internal, then go into the digital i/o options for the tascam and select Adat to lock it.

After reading, that just doesn't seem right.

Ill keep reading. Plus I am about to replace the 4000 with a DM24 soon anyway. I know Im gonna run workclock with it.

Thanks

Malcolm
 
malcolm123 said:
N
sh@t, I just set the Motu for internal, then go into the digital i/o options for the tascam and select Adat to lock it.

After reading, that just doesn't seem right.
/B]
Click to expand...

Did you set the source? Im not sure about this, but if you didn't specify int, digi or sync, the mixer might be flying on its own clock even though ADAT was selected? Check the section in your manual on clocking (section 3) and then compare it to the Motu manual... see if there are possible conflicts. Try to drive the Motu with the TM-D4000 as Master? See which one has a better clock.

SoMm
 
Thanks Man,

I will mess with it later. My brain hurts now. LOL

The (tascam) clock choices are word, internal, d-in1, d-in2, cascade

or one of the 3 slots which are filled with adat interfaces.

I choose the first slot option which is slot1 ch 9-16.

It looks like the 4000 is locking to the motu's internal clock via the first adat internal interface card.

F it, im pulling out the coaxial and gonna try running the Motu MTP AV as the master then chain down with the 4000 being last and terminate there. Ill just mess with different options.

thanks for your help

Malcolm
 
Aside from some possible clocking issues, I would have to say your weakest link is probably the engineer. :eek: I'm not saying that to be an ass, and not saying anything about your engineering skills, as I think that's probably where we can ALL make bigger improvements vs changing gear/software. As your song says, "Practice". Agreed? :D
 
LooneyTunez said:
Aside from some possible clocking issues, I would have to say your weakest link is probably the engineer. :eek: I'm not saying that to be an ass, and not saying anything about your engineering skills, as I think that's probably where we can ALL make bigger improvements vs changing gear/software. As your song says, "Practice". Agreed? :D
Click to expand...


LOL

Yeah, I gotcha. I guess cause it worked fine ( well to me) I thought I was good to go. Once sh@t runs I tend to leave it alone until I bring my @ss in here and read something that makes me say uhmmm. LOL


Sh@t, Im doing too much.

Malcolm = Pro Engineer. LOL
 
Ok I got a new mixer

Which brings this issue back up again.

Wordclock. I have visited Bob's site as well as read some threads over in Nika's forum.

So I would like to go back to newbie mode and ask some newbie questions hopefully to get a more simplistic answer from you guys.

question 1. Im thinking that clocking is done to sync digital signals between digital devices. I have never had a problem clocking my gear from different approachs. ie mixer master or motu slaved or vice versa. Once the gear is clocked, where does the sound quality come into play at where one clocking setup could be better than another,, if this makes since? I dont get clicks or pops or anything, Quality seems there.

Could someone break this down for me as in Wordclock for Dummies trype of reading?

Thanks

Malcolm
 
The BNC cable keeps the digital source synced, when you set the CLOCK, it's only telling it the resolution 44.1K or 48K.

They will sync without it but sometime or another you'll hear something strange and you cant pinpoint it.

The sound quality stems from the BNC keeping the digital balance between both your board & soundcard ---digitally---

I guess the sound quality would be at what resolution you are recording at 44.1K 16 bit, or 48K at 16bit, or 48K at 24bit
then on how you tracked it.

I have a DM24, 2408MKII & DP3, I usually track MIDI first, then when it's time to change it to Audio, I mute all tracks and 1 by 1
pass the sound out of synth, into a tube compressor, back into DP3. That step makes everything sounds smooth.

but if you want to go out and get a DAC-1 - go head
((different approach, for different folks))
 
malcolm123 said:
Naw, thats no the case. I simply have 3 adat interfaces in the tmd4000 and 3 adat or tdifs (or combo) for the motu.

sh@t, I just set the Motu for internal, then go into the digital i/o options for the tascam and select Adat to lock it.

After reading, that just doesn't seem right.

Ill keep reading. Plus I am about to replace the 4000 with a DM24 soon anyway. I know Im gonna run workclock with it.

Thanks

Malcolm
Click to expand...

Nothing wrong with how you're clocking.
 
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