Help Me Please - Digital Recording Studio Essentials

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thesilencekit

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Hello everyone,
I'm brand new to the board, although I've been looking around for weeks.
Everyone on this board seems incredibly helpful and pretty darn knowledgable.
If you can help me out, I'd really appreciate it!

My main questions:
1. What soundcard should I buy?
2. What kind of digital interface should I buy?
3. What kind of Multitrack software should I buy?
4. What kind of pre-amp should I buy?
5. Is there a way to get a combination of the above in one quality package (like in an EMU package)?

Here's what I'm looking to do:
1. Create pro-quality recordings on my PC.
2. Types of recordings:
a.) stripped down acoustic stuff (solo: one instrument at a time)
b.) swirling, layered, textured rock songs (both one instr at a time AND a band live)
c.) angular, loud, noisy rock songs (recording a band live would be important)
3. Instruments I'll be recording:
acoustic and electric guitars, bass, keyboards, vocals, live drums, cello, violin, organ, percussion.

My main instrument is guitar, both electric and acoustic. I'll also have keyboards and percussion (shakers, etc) in mostly all of the songs.

I am planning on using REASON for programming some drums,
But I'm primarily going to use a LIVE drummer, so I need an absolute MINIMUM of 8 ins although I'd like more if possible, so I can record live bands (I'll need 8 for the drums alone and I'd like to record a reference click track, 2 guitars and bass tracks all live as well).

So, here are my needs/concerns, as I understand them:

Soundcard:
(I have no idea what to get. I want it to be 24 bit, obviously, and I want 1/4" ins so I can plug in direct) Any suggestions?

Digital Interface:
1. Aardvark Q10 -or-
2. Delta 1010
3. Or something with MORE ins and outs if possible??

Multitrack Software Questions:
1. Is Cakewalk 9.0 all I need for my purposes? Is Sonar better?
2. Nuendo is astronomically priced. Is it worth it?

Etc:
1. I need MIDI capabilities.
2. I probably will have to buy some really good quality plugins like the UAD-1 package.

Combination Possibilities:
Someone mentioned the EMU Emulator X Studio in another thread and that seems to be a soundcard, a digital interface, and a preamp all in one. Am I right in thinking this? Also, is this mostly for people interested in SAMPLING? Because that is not my focus, and I have a feeling I'd be paying more than I need to for something like this since Sampling seems to be its main attraction.
So, I then looked at EMU 0404 24-bit/96kHz PCI Audio Interface which is WAAAY cheaper and it appears to still be a quality soundcard and interface. I guess the pre's aren't a part of this package(?) but it still appears to be a really good deal and product. Anyone know anything more about this?

Are there any other combinations of the above necessities I should look into?

All help and insight is massively appreciated!

Thanks a lot,
Pat
 
Last edited:
dam i hope i don't get shut down here but...

a sound card IS what you are referring to as a "digital interface". ok ok there are exceptions so lets not get picky BUT the delta 1010 and aardvark are soundcards. From the looking around that i have done (being that i am in a similar situation) I think the delta 1010LT, delta 1010 with a preamp or the aardvark would prolly be good choices (as well as many others but i'm not familiar with them). I think if you want to go up to more than 8 preamplified imputs, the cost is gonna start going up as well.

As for software, i would think that cakewalk 9 may work but there is definately beeter out there now. If you won't want to take the hti and buy sonar, homestudio is an excelent choice. you may find using softsynths very useful in sonar.
 
Pat,

I think we might have covered some of this in the other thread as well, but here goes...

From what you're saying, you are going to be recording LOTS of microphones. If you want to keep everything inside the computer (and you didn't mention if that's something you need or already have), then you will need a soundcard with lots of inputs on it and then some mic pres to handle them or you could get a mixer with lots of mic pres in it and submix before going into your soundcard.

I told you I use the Mixtreme cards. One reason is that each card has 16 channels of digital I/O on TDIF. They sell breakout boxes which have 8 channels of analog I/O on unbalanced RCA connectors. This isn't the ideal arrangement unfortunately, but it is workable if you keep cable runs short. The good news is that they offer a package for $500.00 with one Mixtreme card and two of the analog I/O boxes. This would give you 16 channels in and out. You would need mic pres for however many channels you want to record at once. Behringer and others offer adequate (not excellent) mic pres for a very reasonable price.

Other options would be to get multiple cards like the Delta 1010 or others. I don't know if the EMU works well with more than one installed. My Mixtremes work fine with multiple cards.

The aardvark looks good, but, from what I've seen has terrible support and buggy drivers. M-Audio has had its problems with the Delta drivers, but people seem to be able to get it to work.

You can't buy Cakewalk 9 anymore unless it comes packaged with some of the hardware you're looking at. Simply put, yes, SONAR is better. Get Producer Edition, if you can afford it. I've never used Nuendo so I can't comment on it. I can tell you that a lot of people choose Cakewalk because of the user forum and the customer support though I think Nuendo might have more high level features. But, with every release, Cakewalk is getting closer.

Do you have a budget? Do you already have some of the equipment such as mics and cables and computers and whatnot?

I hope this helps. This can be EXTREMELY confusing! Good luck!

Ted
 
Hey Guys,
Thanks a lot for all your help!
Ted, I have a computer that needs to be upgraded - or heaved out a window :) but thats another, longer story we won't get into now...
My bass player has a bunch of nice mics, so I'll be borrowing his equipment whenever possible.
What you said about the Mixtreme cards sounds like an exciting solution.

The package they're selling for $500.00 with one Mixtreme card and two of the analog I/O boxes sounds ideal but I have a question in regards to that though- isn't there a loss in quality going from digital to analog?

Where's the company's site for these Mixtreme packages?

Thanks a lot!

-Pat
 
thesilencekit said:
isn't there a loss in quality going from digital to analog?
Click to expand...

You'll be going the other way - analog to digital. The quality of the conversion is a function of the sound card. 24 bit converters at 44.1kHz will give you reasonable good quality conversion - although even then, not all cards are created equal.

For simplicity you might want to consider a Delta 1010 and an analog mixer with at least 8 Direct Outs (channel Inserts can also be used as a fallback). Look to Mackie or Sound Craft for a reasonable balance between quality and price. This would give you the capability to record 8 tracks simulatenously. Ultimately, using Sonar you can record as many tracks as your CPU can handle, but only 8 at a time maximum with the above equipment.
 
dachay2tnr,
Oh, Ok. Analog to Digital is good. :)

Is THIS the Mixtreme package Ted was talking about:

http://www.sydec.be/Products/Details/?ID=c83572df-b60b-48a8-99ea-7e0cf2f38fe2

?

And does this look good?
It sounds like what I'm looking for...
And I think Ted said they were bought by Mackie, so if they are making them now, this is probably good...

I would just need to get a pre-amp and I'd have most of my concerns taken care of I think...

Any thoughts on this?

-Pat
 
Pat-

Not sure what you mean about going from digital to analog. You'll be going from analog to digital, that is, instruments (analog) to computer (digital), I guess I'm not understanding your question.

HERE is the link to Sydec's web site. The special pricing is found there under their "Crazy Deals" link. These soundcards aren't for everyone I guess, but they are workhorses that are very reliable.

The only things that I don't like are the aforementioned RCA connectors and unbalanced connections and that Sydec chose the TDIF interface over ADAT. Depending on what you connect it to, this might not matter and there are ways to convert, so it's not a deal breaker. The converters are 20 bit, but of extremely high quality and outperform many lower-end 24 bit converters. Trust me, if you like try their product, you won't be disappointed.

They have an awesome system in the Mixtreme Powerpack 24, but it's considerably more expensive ($2500.00), but it comes with their new interface box and two Mixtreme cards giving you 32 digital I/O and 24 balanced analog I/O. Because the Mixtreme cards have powerful DSP onboard, they can handle this without overtaxing the CPU. If you have LOTS of money, then you can look at their Mixpander cards which up the ante by offering more onboard DSP for even more power! And then they have the ultimate systems like their System 128i DAW. You won't outgrow that anytime soon!

Ted
 
thesilencekit said:
dachay2tnr,
Oh, Ok. Analog to Digital is good. :)

Is THIS the Mixtreme package Ted was talking about:

http://www.sydec.be/Products/Details/?ID=c83572df-b60b-48a8-99ea-7e0cf2f38fe2

?

And does this look good?
It sounds like what I'm looking for...
And I think Ted said they were bought by Mackie, so if they are making them now, this is probably good...

I would just need to get a pre-amp and I'd have most of my concerns taken care of I think...

Any thoughts on this?

-Pat
Click to expand...

Pat,

I'm sorry if I didn't make it clear, Mackie bought them, yes, but they nearly ruined them. They did NOTHING to support or expand the product. If they still owned them they would probably have gone under by now. The original creators of the hardware somehow managed to get the money to re-purchase the company from Mackie and have resurrected Sydec. All of the new product you're seeing is post Mackie.

Ted
 
Ted,
Thanks a lot, this is really helping me out a great deal.
I just have a few questions about this... Please excuse my ignorence.

But, how does this hook up to my PC exactly?

When you say the card has "16 channels of digital I/O on TDIF," what does TDIF mean? And is ADAT better? And if it DID use ADAT, would I then need another machine - an ADAT machine? Is there a TDIF machine I would need as well, or would these breakout boxes be all I would need? I'm a little unsure of what exactly their purpose is - do they have 1/4" inputs?

Finally, what's bad about having "unbalanced RCA connectors" ?

This is really informative.
Thanks a lot, Ted, and everyone else who's been responding!

-Pat
 
Pat-

TDIF stands for Tascam Digital InterFace. Just as ADAT was Alesis means of connecting their digital gear, Tascam came out with their own propietary interface. ADAT has become ubiquitous whereas TDIF is not quite so common. Don't really think one is "better" than the other.

So, TDIF/ADAT is only an issue when you are trying to connect different pieces of digital gear or transfer digital data between them. For instance, I'm getting an Akai DPS24 with the ADAT expansion board in it. This will have three ADAT I/O on it allowing the transfer of 24 tracks of data, but since my sound card has TDIF I'll need to get a box to convert between the two protocols.

A lot of guys bought the Mixtreme 4-5 years ago to get into digital recording. At that time, Tascam had come out with the TMD1000 digital mixer. They originally were around $1200.00 which wasn't bad for a 16 channel digital mixer with effects. Then they dropped the price to $500.00! You can still find them on e-bay and it's not a bad setup with a Mixtreme. Some guys got 2. If you could find the expansion cards for them you could have a very powerful digital system, automatable with MIDI, for not a lot of cash.

The iBox-8 (SS8IO-3) gives you 8 analog ins and outs on unbalanced RCA connectors plus TDIF connector and word clock in and out.

So, it doesn't have 1/4" connectors, this would mean that you would have to get cables that went from 1/4" to RCA, not a big deal, but not great. Unbalanced VS balanced- Just to keep this simple (and because I don't think I could do a very good job explaining), balanced connections offer better shielding from interference and would allow much longer cable runs with fewer problems. This would also depend on whether the instruments you're using have unbalanced or balanced outputs on them. Both are common. Generally, better equipment will have balanced outputs.

All you electronics experts can correct any inaccuracies in the above! :)

Soundscape was never marketed very heavily in the US. They are a lot more popular in Europe. I think Mackie bought them with the thought of killing them since they also got the UAD-1 around the same time. Mackie was terrible for Sydec.

If you look at their forum you'll see that, though small, they have a very loyal following. Their support is excellent and users don't have many problems. How many audio cards are still viable 4-5 years after their introduction? Not too many.

Their add-in plugs are expensive though the cards come with a decent selection included. If you aren't clear on the concept, all of the Soundscape products have on-board DSP. The Mixtreme has one DSP chip, the Mixpander cards have 5 or 9 chips. These allow the card to handle the effects processing which frees up your CPU for other tasks. Admittedly, this is less of an issue now with the faster, multi-threaded processors available, but even if you don't run any native effects on it, the cards are very reliable and simple to use. The fully configurable mixer is pretty cool alone.

I hope this clarifies things more.

Ted
 
alternatives to i-box8s ?

Ok... So, it sounds like if I want to have a "real studio" environment, consisting of running cables through walls, so a guitar player in the other room can record on the computer (which will be located in the control room), I should steer clear of unbalanced RCA connectors.
And since I AM hoping to create a "real studio," I guess the next question is...
Is there any alternative to breaking out using these ibox8s?
Is there another adapter/box that can be used/made?

Thanks again,
Pat
 
Not so fast there...

You could place the iBox near the devices you are going to connect and then run a long TDIF cable though I believe the maximum length is 16 feet.

You can get ok results using unbalanced cables, but you have to be more careful and they are more susceptible to interference. How long of a run are you looking at? High quality unbalanced cables are still pretty good at rejecting interference. Also, a lot depends on what equipment you have. If your synths don't have balanced outputs then it doesn't really matter. And a lot of them don't. Guitars, of course, are always unbalanced. (That goes for guitarists as well :D [I couldn't resist]).

As for other options. Of course, there is the iBox 48-TA, but it's $1895.00. Worth it though. It has everything you would need for a very professional setup. Beyond that, I'm not aware of anything else for connecting to TDIF other than the aforementioned TMD1000 mixer or things like the AW2816 or AW4416 which have optional cards for TDIF.

A lot of your choices are going to depend on your ultimate goals and, of course, your budget. Are you trying to setup a small home studio? Is this going to be a professional, money-making venture? Are you trying to make commercial release CDs? Demos? What kind of music are you producing? Are you planning on recording live bands? Acoustic instruments? A lot of vocals?

A lot of us are working in a small room, tracking and mixing in the same place. For us, balanced, unbalanced is less of an issue.

Personally, I'm creating a hybrid system with both a computer DAW and a hard disk digital studio in the DPS24. With this setup, I'll be able to take advantage of hardware based mixing and tracking, an extremely powerful MIDI environment in SONAR, the opportunity to use plug-ins on both platforms (yes, there is a way to do this in the DPS24) and generally work with maximum flexibility.

As I said originally, the Mixtreme isn't for everyone. One cool thing about their units is that there is an upgrade path of sorts. You could start with a Mixtreme and a couple of iBoxes, maybe add the iBox 48-TA at some point and then look at the Mixpander cards. or vice-versa. Their high-end embedded systems will do anything you want and rival any Protools setup, but with a lot more stability and for thousands less. They offer a lot of price points from less than $500.00 to $13750.00!

Ted
 
Ted (and all),

My immediate plan:
I have a finished attic (its a full sized floor with various "rooms" i plan on making into isolation booths, and a control room, etc) Initially, I want this to be just for me to record my music. But I want the recordings to be commercial release CDs. Of course, I don't mean Top 40, major label pristine quality kinds of stuff necessarily. But I want it to be much better than demo quality. I plan on self-releasing the music I record, or shopping it around to indie labels for release.

My secondary plan:
I would like to eventually move the studio out to our seperated garage and turn it into a money making business (this would likely be 3 years away or so).

As for what types of music and what instruments I'm planning on recording...

Types of recordings:
a.) stripped down acoustic stuff (solo: one instrument at a time)
b.) swirling, layered, textured rock songs (both one instr at a time AND a band live)
c.) angular, loud, noisy rock songs (recording a band live would be important)

Instruments I'll be recording:
acoustic and electric guitars, bass, keyboards, vocals, live drums, cello, violin, organ, percussion.

So basically, at this point, I'm looking to buy an affordable setup that can do some pro-quality stuff for my music (recording my live band as well as recording myself solo and overdubbing everything). I know I'll have to upgrade in 3 years regardless of what I buy now pretty much, which is just how technology works, so thats cool. I'm just afraid of being in a situation where I buy a whole lot of things now and then in 3 years, ALL of it will be unusable in a pro environment and I will have to REPLACE the entire system. But the way you're explaining this mixtreme setup, it sounds like a pretty good option. And worst case scenerio, I have to replace a $500 package in 3 years. Thats not bad. I'd just hate to spend thousands and thousands, and wind up with a system unusable in a pro environment.

Do you think the mixtreme setup would help me accomplish my immediate goals?

Thanks again!
-Pat
 
Pat-

Well you know I'm a big fan of the Mixtreme, but I'll bet I'm the only one here using it! On the other hand, if you examine their site and look at their users you'll find plenty of pros using their cards though I suspect most of them use the Mixpanders or the embedded systems.

Honestly, I don't think anyone would argue that the M-Audio stuff is exactly high-end pro gear. Like Behringer, they make decent sounding, low-cost gear for the semi-pro, prosumer and entry-level pro market. You're not going to find their stuff in a truly pro environment. I'm not putting their equipment down in any way. There are different market segments, all valid and different manufacturers cater to them.

You didn't really address my question about budget. Again, for $2500.00 you can get the Mixtreme Power Pak 24i- Two Mixtremes and the iBox 48-TA. That is one powerful system and it can grow with you in the future.

To me, the other major player you might want to consider is RME. I don't have any personal knowledge of their equipment, but I know a number of pros who are using them with excellent results. This is serious gear. Also on the high end, MOTU though I don't know how serious they are in their PC support and Lynx is another possible choice.

On the other end of the spectrum, and much more mainstream, I've been reading good things about the new E-MU cards which offer a lot of bang for the buck!

Ted
 
Oh, sorry- I forgot the budget question! Budget-wise, I don't want to spend thousands on the interface really. $500 is much more my speed :) but i'd probably go as high as around $1000 if i was pretty certain it was money well spent.

I also might have been unclear. I don't need 32 ins/outs. I see my "live band" tracking as such:

2 for electric guitars,
1 for electric bass,
8 for live drums,
1 for scratch vocal
--
12 total tracks

I wouldn't need to record anymore tracks than that at one time.
Everything else would be overdubbed later.

I'm thinking the Power Pak 16 might be perfect for my needs at this point.

Hmmm

-Pat
 
What????? No KEYBOARDS?????? :eek:

I'm through helping you then! :mad:

Seriously, I don't do much acoustic stuff because I can't sing and I'm a keyboard player so lots of inputs are always an issue for me. I've got 6 hardware synths and that's 12 minimum inputs right there and some of them have even more! I NEVER have enough inputs! That's one of the reasons I am getting the DPS, it has 24 inputs on it so I won't have to repatch all the time. I'll probably run most of my boards through it and I'll take some of the secondary outputs and send them into the computer.

Ted
 
woah- you're not really mad are you?
i AM going to have keyboards, on probably every single song.
but i'm not going to need to record that live with the rest of the band, because i don't have an actual "keyboard player." i just play the (very simple) parts i've written myself, in overdubs later.

so i'm thinking the 16 should be good for me, am i correct?

thanks!
 
I'm just playin' with ya. :p

It will probably be fine.

But, most of the time, and this applies to most things in life...

more is better!!! :D

Ted
 
tedluk said:
I'm just playin' with ya. :p

It will probably be fine.

But, most of the time, and this applies to most things in life...

more is better!!! :D

Ted
Click to expand...

Except mother in law... :eek:

:D :D :D
 
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