Help me make this more Epic!

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darkecho

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here is the rough draft for a prelude to my album in the works. its going to be a celtic/folk/viking styled musical content with metal influences (double bass and stuff) generally speaking im trying to capture the essence of old norse/viking warfare and be as authentic as possible while still making the music appeal to metal heads among others.. this is the prelude that i would like to depict a scene of a large fleet of viking longhships, all with blood rest masts sailing to the shore where the opposing army awaits. hence the war horns and sort of doomy sounding strings... but i know that i can make this waaaay bettter, i just need your help! how can i improve this to make it sound more epic and more war like.. i want it to be somewhat intense but it still must remain an intro/prelude. the next song will start off fast and be battle themed (think ensiferum/wintersun/finntroll/rhapsody) so this prelude is building up to that. thanks everyone in advance!!

 
i dont have real instruments at my disposal.
 
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Power metallll! I haven't listened yet, but you better believe I will be.
 
It would help if you had Mel Gibson in a skirt, holding a bloody hatchet while staring meaningfully at a field of dead bodies.

No, I don't think I can be of much help really. I thought it sounded pretty cool, though. You say it's supposed to build into a heavy fast tune? If that's the case then you might want to actually have it, you know, like, build up to that? Have more and more instruments come in playing harmony parts, and get gradually louder up until it's all balls loud in your face, and then BOOM, the fast heavy stuff hits.

Yeah, that's the ticket. Or something.
 
i like that idea! I will begin to add some more instruments... the hard part will be keeping it from getting overpopulated and muddy. thanks ill try this
 
Sounds like a good start toward what you're after - I'd say maybe try some more percussion, especially if you're going for the 'sounds of war' thing... some 1/8 note pickups on the timpani would give it a more driving feel, maybe try finding some celtic/period percussion instrumnts (well, samples anyway) like a bodhran...
 
since the timpani strikes are on the down beat, are you saying to add 7 more timpani hits inbetween each existing strike? or are you saying to make it 4?
 
maybe work on creating a wider stereo field. everything sounds like it's coming from the same place which is kind of boring. sounds like a good start.
 
"Please dont waste my time with ignorant responses, im here to improve, and your post helped me in no way..."

I know,
Get a sense of humour! I did think you had one when you mooted Epic Re-enactmental Synthesized Nordic Naval Battle Vallhalla Prelude Metal.

Money or lack of it isn't always a valid excuse. REAL instruments would help, you can get REAL musicians, you might acquire friends and have them assist. You could bang against a bin lid with a stick too. How about sampling Young Gods or consulting druids? Eric Redbeard the new midi enhanced album from Rick Wakeman comes to mind.

Why would the masts be blood red? They'd be obscured by the sails wouldn't they? & the thin masts wouldn't echo the shape of a Norse battleblade terribly well. Unless the longships "...carved through the pounding surf on a murderous tidal surge, pointless sails furled - bloody rapier tipped masts scarifying the sunset with their barbaric intent..." sort of thing.

Sorry about the caustic response but your earlier reply to a valid point about using real instruments - at least where possible - annoyed the tripe out of me. With me not being a many stomached bovine that was difficult to achieve.

In terms of your music - funereal is an apt description. There's none of the bravado or caterwalling expected of warhorns in there anywhere.
There's no sense of the scope you alude to in words. More a walk down the aisle of a state funeral that a prelude to bloodletting. You need to include aural clues/foreshadowing to the tumult to come. The odd bit of discordance, rumble, the heave of heavy timbers, surf, wind, clang of weapons, dip of oars, exhalation of breath, cark of war crows, squark of seagulls, rhythm of wave vs that of the oarsmen. Prelude is a tiny bit like an overture in it's sampling of what is to come though not dedicated to it.
The stereo soundscape needs addressing a sense of movement can be described through slow, progressive panning. A sense of opposition through hard panning, etc.
And I have to agree with Kasey, the samples aren't very lifelike.
With all of that said I think that, without such a detailed and ambitious scenario ascribed to it, the actual melody seems nice.
Cheers & good luck
rayC
 
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Orchestral placement

Its been a while since I've attempted anything similar, but anyhow -

The string sound is rather nice but on the long notes, you can hear the sample repeating itself. If you have access to them (/google search), perhaps you could use longer, more natural sounding samples and blend them together until this section overall sounds more realistic.

The second major point is orchestral section balance. It sounds like you may have captured this partially. In a real orchestra, for example, the string section is on the left near the front, whilst the timpani drum section is right at the back and slightly to the the left. Bassy instruments, for example cellos are located to the right and near the front. (If my memory serves me correctly).

In other words, together with balance and reverb, you can more or less simulate the depth of the instrument and precisely where it should be located, orchestrally. At present timpani is a good volume, but is too far `forward' so the illusions is, is that its too loud.

Finally, there was an article in sound on sound magazine several years ago explaining how to put together an orchestral sound using samples and synthesisers. It may or may not be online somewhere.

Ben.
 
bendbones said:
In other words, together with balance and reverb, you can more or less simulate the depth of the instrument and precisely where it should be located, orchestrally.
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the very words that i could'nt put together with my little brain.
 
I think a strong counter melody using french horns might work near the middle.
 
The basic composition is appealing to me but it sounds "dead" because of panning and dynamic range issues. Also there is no "surprise" in the instrument voicing, stereo placement, volume or variety of instrumentation.
Your piece puts me in the mood of the latest theme for Elder Scrolls: Oblivion.
http://www.elderscrolls.com/downloads/downloads_music.htm
I suggest that you listen to it with an ear to the dynamic range (loud to soft), stereo placemant (note the off center placement of the French horns) and instrumentation variety (note how the cymbals are used as accents).
.
 
wow. this is perfect you guys, this is EXACTLY the kind of professional grade advice i was looking for. and about the comment on real instruments, as we all know, its hard to portray emotion in words on here and "use real instruments." looks rather un-funny to me, without further context. So if indeed it was a humorous remakr, i apologize for my response. but at the same time, im 18 with a million friends who play nothing but electric guitar and drums. and I really dont think I want to spend the time searching out actual musicians with real instruments for this simple little thing, its not serious enough for me to do so... and just for the record, i am using a 100 dollar little toy keyboard so yes, i would expect the sounds to suck :D I am currently trying to buy a k2600 or something to help me get higher quality sounds.. but all i can really do at the moment is alter these really artificial sounding instruments.. I really like your idea RayC, about incorporating ambient noise, oar dipping, seagulls, mast flapping in the wind, flags and the clink of weapons.. I think that if im going to ad those noises, i need to have the music more surrounding, as if you are on the viking ship amidst these noises, clinks here and there to the left and right, center.. gull cries above and distant/ahead where the shore is... mast above and centered... is adobe audition capable of easily letting me creade a 3dimensional placement of these sounds or do i just have to experiment with panning? thanks a lot you guys for the information, how is the tempo, i think that can be answered relatively safely... and i need some horns with a bit more bite as well as some dissonance at the very end that builds up into the smash beginning of the next song. once again, thanks to everyone who has posted so far (even kasey ;) )
 
rayc said:
In terms of your music - funereal is an apt description. There's none of the bravado or caterwalling expected of warhorns in there anywhere.
There's no sense of the scope you alude to in words. More a walk down the aisle of a state funeral that a prelude to bloodletting. You need to include aural clues/foreshadowing to the tumult to come. The odd bit of discordance, rumble, the heave of heavy timbers, surf, wind, clang of weapons, dip of oars, exhalation of breath, cark of war crows, squark of seagulls, rhythm of wave vs that of the oarsmen. Prelude is a tiny bit like an overture in it's sampling of what is to come though not dedicated to it.
The stereo soundscape needs addressing a sense of movement can be described through slow, progressive panning. A sense of opposition through hard panning, etc.
And I have to agree with Kasey, the samples aren't very lifelike.
With all of that said I think that, without such a detailed and ambitious scenario ascribed to it, the actual melody seems nice.
Cheers & good luck
rayC
Click to expand...
Great post rayC, these enhancements would really bring this to life.
 
darkecho said:
since the timpani strikes are on the down beat, are you saying to add 7 more timpani hits inbetween each existing strike? or are you saying to make it 4?
Click to expand...

No, I just meant a simple pick-up an eighth note before the down beat.... baa-bummmp!
And as far as the real instrument thing goes, you'd be surprised how just one or two 'real' mic'ed instruments can make the whole thing seem more authentic and alive.... you want it to breathe a bit, and even something as simple as tapping a rhythm on a drum (as I think someone suggested) or buying a cheap plastic recorder and learning it well enough to add some single note pads really low in the mix will really help this.
 
so a pickup before each timpani hit or just every forth one? like Ba-BUM...BUM....BUM....BUM.... Ba-BUM and so on, or every hit, like ba-bum, ba-bum, ba-bum etc. lol i think there is usually a viking on the ship who drums a simple beat that the oarsmen row to... is this correct? maybe i could encorporate that and lengthen the song.
 
Hmm.. probably not every time, it might get a bit repetative...
I'm not too up on my viking history, but you might have a good concept there - do you know the band Dead Can Dance? They often did a very similar style to what I think you're after... might be worth checking out for some cool rhythmic ideas.
 
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