Help me Improve With some Criticism- Drum mix's

[TragikRemix]

Ok, so here is my first real attempt at mixing drums.

Please don't discriminate based on my playing abilities, im not a great drummer, i play guitar
But i do know i hit them "right". also, advise that the ride cymbal is actually an 18" crash cymbal, i sold my ride and hadn't purchased my new one yet, at this time.

I dont even know if it is considered mixing, the way it came out. I really don't know if it is good or not. I want your criticism and maybe some info to help me, (plus an explanation if you could). First off, there are two files; one is the regular mix, and the other is the regular mix, with Drumagog (Demo) samples replacing the Kick and Snare.

I don't know much about the plugins i used, but i found some info online about how to (roundabout) EQ each mic, and i went with the Digi Presets on the Compressors and Expander/Gate, with (i cant remember if at all) MINOR adjustments, but i really don't know what i am doing with them. All of the compressor settings are the same too. The EQ varies slightly.

Using Pro Tools 7.0, Digirack Plugins, Digi 002r and Behringer ADA8000 (lightpipe)

Heres exactly what i did:

Track 1: Kick (AKG D112)
-4 Band Digi EQ
-Output=2.9db
-LF=100hz, +2.0dB
-LMF=406.7hz, -2.0dB
-MF=1000hz, 0dB
-HMF=2.5khz, +2.0dB
-HF=6khz, 0dB

-Digi Compressor
-Gain=0dbB
-Threshold=-31dB
-Ratio=4.00:1
-Attack=11ms
-Release=50ms
-Knee=80

-Digi Expander-Gate (set to "Kick Gate with Key Filt"
-Threshold=-15.3dB
-Ratio=40.0:1
-Attack=.30ms
-Hold=88ms
-Decay=360ms
-Range=-77dB

Track 2: Kick (Shure SM57)
-Flat EQ

-Digi Compressor
-Gain=0dbB
-Threshold=-31dB
-Ratio=4.00:1
-Attack=11ms
-Release=50ms
-Knee=80

-Digi Expander-Gate (set to "Kick Gate with Key Filt"
-Threshold=-15.3dB
-Ratio=40.0:1
-Attack=.30ms
-Hold=88ms
-Decay=360ms
-Range=-77dB

Track 3: Snare (Shure SM57)

-4 Band Digi EQ
-Output=2.3db
-LF=100hz, +2.0dB
-LMF=399.1hz, -3.1dB
-MF=1000hz, 0dB
-HMF=2khz, 0dB
-HF=6.53khz, +2.0dB

-Digi Compressor
-Gain=0dbB
-Threshold=-31dB
-Ratio=4.00:1
-Attack=11ms
-Release=50ms
-Knee=80

-Digi Expander-Gate (set to "Snare Gate with Key Filt"
-Threshold=-26.1dB
-Ratio=30.0:1
-Attack=.00ms
-Hold=200ms
-Decay=130ms
-Range=-80dB

Tracks 4 and 5: Overheads (AKG C430 Pair) (Exact Same)

-4 Band Digi EQ
-Output=0db
-LF=100hz, +2.0dB
-LMF=374.3hz, -2.0dB
-MF=1000hz, 0dB
-HMF=2.5khz, +2.0dB
-HF=6khz, +2.0dB

-Digi Compressor
-Gain=0dbB
-Threshold=-31dB
-Ratio=4.00:1
-Attack=11ms
-Release=50ms
-Knee=80

Master Output

-D-Verb (Reverb)
-Input=-1db
-Mix=30%
-Diffusion=80%
-Decay=347ms
-Pre-Delay=0ms
-HF Cut=11.93khz
-LP Filter=Off

Drum Bounce Pre-Drumagog
Drum Bounce With Drumagog Samples

Hopefully, the conversion to mp3 didn't COMPLETELY destroy it...

 

[TragikRemix]

no takers to help me??

 

[jonnyc]

You know, it's almost impossible to tell you how well you can mix the drums because you kinda suck as a drummer and a real drummer will make drums sound much much better than someone who's just fucking around. I can say that drumagog seems to be a real help and you should probably stick with it. Your cymbals are way too bright, cut there, don't boost. Find a little more friendly frequency for the cymbals. Find someone who can really play and record them, use them for practice.


ps. Don't ever blame a bad mix on an mp3, it's not its fault, it's yours.

 

[Emusic]

I don´t think it´s impossible at all to rate you drum mixing/recording based on the fact that you arent a drummer.
I dont know much about drum recording. But I know alot about how I want my drums to sound.
I think your recording sounds much like - a recording of a whole drumkit. Uh... Was that clear or gave any meaning? Guess not.
Processing the separate drums very individually is what I tend to do. Making each drum more distinct in its own sonic environement is what I would try to do.
Listen to Billy Jean with Michael Jackson. Engineered by legendary Bruce Swedien and many others. This song opens with just a kick, a snare and a hihat.
Hear the definition in those drums? Thats what Im talking about. Of course each drum here is mic´ed with top notch mics and prosessed through Swediens racks of top notch, carefully selected gear. Coupled with his tremendeous experience and knowhow the sound comes out as if the drummer was sitting inside my head playing that steady rythm.
Well maybe it aint that kind of drum sound you are hunting. Some says these kind of distinct drum sound isnt what they are hunting, they want a more realistic sound, as if it was done in a club or something. I must often find that as a way to say "hey buddy, I aint there yet. I cant make the sound I want yet." Well who knows.
Summing up, I found your recording to be a sonic image of a ..... drumset in a room with a couple of mics. It aint bad, but far from good in my ears. To little definition for my taste. Give each instument (drum) a little more of its own space (freq talking). Also make sure you keep on working on mics, mic placement, room layout (sonic environement).
I know Bruce Swedien actually built a 10 inch high drummers podium in wood in the studio to give the drumsound its own fingerprint and to avoid some low end travel through the floor on some of Jacksons drumtracks. Not many of us have a room worth it, the time or the funds to do stuff like that, but it can give us the picture and inspiration of what it takes to improve sound.
Keep on recording and thinking of what you hear. Compare it to the actual drumsound on songs you want it to sound like.
Give my drumtracks the Billy Jean-sound, and I swear I wont ask for more that week.

 

[TragikRemix]

thanks guys. so what your saying is that i should make each drum hit sound like just that- an individual drum, instead of making it sound like a drum set?

the cymbals- i agree. i also think that drumagog improves on the sound- the individual drums rather than a whole set.

i said i wasnt a drummer haha. im working on that though. somebody who is better at drums would make a better recording, and i would be able to concentrate more on the actual recording aspect rather than having to play.

im just going to keep trying though, whats the worst that could happen.

 

[Emusic]

Did you listen to Billy Jean? That should explain my post pretty easy.
Listen to the opening 4 seconds of Billy Jean - then listen to your own recording. Viola; you should have a goal to reach for.
I have no idea how much of the overheads etc you should put into it. Thats what you find out by turning knobs.
I take it you will have a lot to learn about mic placement, room threatment, effecting the drums with i.e. filters, compessors, limiters, EQ etc..
Just use your ears and keep on.
Even if its not the Billy Jean sound you are aiming for - try at least to come as close as possible.
As you are closing in you will have learned a lot.

 

[RAMI]

so what your saying is that i should make each drum hit sound like just that- an individual drum, instead of making it sound like a drum set?

I think that's what was being suggested, but I have to totally disagree on that one. I'll just leave it at that for now and say that I believe a drum set should sound like drum SET, not a bunch of different drums all recorded in different rooms.

I can't listen right now, but looking at your EQ chart, I have a feeling you're doing too much boosting. You should try to cut where possible and not boost if at all possible.

 

[Emusic]

Of course its gonna sound like a drum set. And of course you shouldnt record it in different rooms.
But part of my theory is getting it "larger than life". You can tweak the separate drums to sound with better clarity. But that has to start with room treatment, instrument quality, mics and preamps. Then you get a high quality signal to work further on.
Its a difference making it sound like a drumset in a buggy room, and making it sound like a drumset crisp and clear where the drumsounds stand out as.... ah not that one again ... the Billy Jean cut .
Its still a drumset - but close, dynamic and so crispy clear that you can close your eyes and imagine the actual kit is on the floor - just right behind you. Or better - that you are in the drummers seat.
Well again - thats a matter of taste and choice. I know mine.
Keep it up.

 

[jonnyc]

I completely disagree with treating each drum seperate also. You want to do exactly the opposite and don't listen to people who say they don't know much about drum recording or take any advice from them. That's like someone saying yeah I don't know how to put a supercharger on car but I know I want it to go fast. You want to capture a majority of your kit's sounds with 3 mics. Two overheads and a kick. You can add a snare mic for a slightly tighter sound and then I personally add tom mics just to reinforce their sound in the mix. Remember you need to go easy on the cymbals, don't beat the crap out of them, save that for your drums.

 

[RAMI]

If I read the words "Billy Jean" one more time, I'm gonna kik a hole in my screen. Enough already.

 

[jonnyc]

Of course its gonna sound like a drum set. And of course you shouldnt record it in different rooms.
But part of my theory is getting it "larger than life". You can tweak the separate drums to sound with better clarity. But that has to start with room treatment, instrument quality, mics and preamps. Then you get a high quality signal to work further on.
Its a difference making it sound like a drumset in a buggy room, and making it sound like a drumset crisp and clear where the drumsounds stand out as.... ah not that one again ... the Billy Jean cut .
Its still a drumset - but close, dynamic and so crispy clear that you can close your eyes and imagine the actual kit is on the floor - just right behind you. Or better - that you are in the drummers seat.
Well again - thats a matter of taste and choice. I know mine.
Keep it up.

You can do all that without relying on every drum being treated seperately. PM Farview who actually records sounds for Drumagog and ask him what he does. I have a terrible room that's untreated with concrete floors and blankets over the concrete walls and the drum sounds I get are plenty fine.

 

[Emusic]

jonnyc I can see the fun part of your comparasion.
Make no mistake - im more into mixing it than just wanting it to sound good.
I can sit hours to try around to get the correct sound of a kickdrum.
The reason why I havent recorded a drumset for my own is that I dont have a room and the set of mikes that would make it sound the way I would like the drums to sound in my programs. That I know. Thats why I go to other sources for my drum-tracking. Also - I dont run a studio for clients, but for songwriting.
That making me not able to give advice?
Cmon noone had answered this poster at all, so I felt I should give him MY advice. I take it he would get several advices as this thread grew with time.
From there he would be able to think, listen and try. Thats how we all learn.
My point is; if you cannot make a crisp and seperated/close drummix as in the example I pointed towards, then you still got a lot to learn. That is an option to work, try and fail, and learn.
On the other hand, if you ARE able to get such a drummix but dont like it? Fine. Then you know the tecnique.
Anyways - keep on making those drumtracks.

 

[Emusic]

If I read the words "Billy Jean" one more time, I'm gonna kik a hole in my screen. Enough already.

Why? Thats a great mix from a great engineer. BTW your productive participation in this thread lead me to your website where I listened to "Spiders in my head". A great recording, wich you could have thrown in as a great example of recording drums. But you were busy kicking monitors I guess
Good sound on that track.

 

[TragikRemix]

i like the sound from the song that i shouldnt say.
but then again, theres not much i dont like. i dont think i could make a sound like that because it sounds really crisp, clear and the room isnt a piece of crap basment room.
im having a drummer friend of mine play some stuff for me. maybe then i could actually sit there and adjust the mics while he plays, instead of me playing, stopping, listening, getting up, adjusting the mics, and repeating until i say f*&^ it! good enough!

 

[Emusic]

Yeah Remix. Good point. Glad you got some feedback in your thread. Keep on recording and please post new recordings later for feedback.
Best of luck.