Help!!!!!!!!! I'm a newbie!

C

crimp

New member
Hi all, first of all... I'm a newbie. Please don't hold that against me. I may ask stupid questions, but thats the best way to learn! Now with that out of the way, I'll get on to the meat and potatoes! My band has just recently purchased a Tascam 788 and we are in the process of recording a few songs. So far we are having trouble with the overall volume level of the completed mix. Our mixes sound good as far as tone and overall sound, they are just too quiet! I have a copy of Cool Edit Pro and T-Racks 24 but I'm new to these also! I've tried compressing and limiting and then normalizing, but this seems to suck the life out of the tracks. I've used the presets in T-Racks and have been successful in bringing the level up somewhat, but it's still too quiet. My question is this... We didn't use a lot of compression when we recorded these tracks, so there are a lot of large spikes in the waveform. This is the part that has to be squashed to get the level up. Should we try more compression when we record? Can anyone give me any settings in T-Racks or any of the Direct X plug ins for Cool Edit to help deal with this problem. I think I have some pretty good tools... I just don't have the experience yet to use them correctly!!!! Thanks in advance for your help.

Greg Thomas
www.justanotherbeggar.com
 
crimp said:
Hi all, first of all... I'm a newbie. Please don't hold that against me. I may ask stupid questions, but thats the best way to learn! Now with that out of the way, I'll get on to the meat and potatoes! My band has just recently purchased a Tascam 788 and we are in the process of recording a few songs. So far we are having trouble with the overall volume level of the completed mix. Our mixes sound good as far as tone and overall sound, they are just too quiet! I have a copy of Cool Edit Pro and T-Racks 24 but I'm new to these also! I've tried compressing and limiting and then normalizing, but this seems to suck the life out of the tracks. I've used the presets in T-Racks and have been successful in bringing the level up somewhat, but it's still too quiet. My question is this... We didn't use a lot of compression when we recorded these tracks, so there are a lot of large spikes in the waveform. This is the part that has to be squashed to get the level up. Should we try more compression when we record? Can anyone give me any settings in T-Racks or any of the Direct X plug ins for Cool Edit to help deal with this problem. I think I have some pretty good tools... I just don't have the experience yet to use them correctly!!!! Thanks in advance for your help.

Greg Thomas
www.justanotherbeggar.com
Click to expand...


Hey and Welcome,
When you say overall volume of the complete mix,, do you mean that once you have mixed down ( before you do anything to the final mix) that the voume is not loud enough,, as in level wise? If thats the case,, then how is the volume for say other group's CDs when you listen to them? Give us that first and we can go from there. Other people in this forum will jump in as well.

Malcolm
 
Malcom, Thanks for the reply. Yes I am talking about after I mixdown and before I do anything to it. And compared to other CD's it is... well, I don't know exactly how many db quieter it is, but I can say it is very noticable. One other thing I have noticed is when I use the normalize plug in or the the loudness maximizer plug in, the level goes up some, but so does the hiss. Let me also give you the scenario from the recording standpoint. The drum track was recorded with mics on the snare, bass, and one on each tom and 2 overheads. This was all sub mixed and ran to 2 tracks (Left and Right) through a compressor with only a slight amount of compression used. The guitars and bass were recorded using an sm-57 miked cabinet, with no compression. And finally, the vocals were recorded directly into the Tascam with no compression. All levels were set just below where the clip indicator lit up. Next we do a stupid thing (Ha!) because this is just what we have! We don't have a CD burner on the Tascam so we play back the Tascam with all the levels set where we want them and record this directly into Cool Edit using the monitor out on the Tascam into the line in on a computer. We also have to set the output level of the Tascam to avoid clipping in Cool Edit. (Go ahead, flames everywhere!) Hey, we are just trying to play with the cards we are dealt!!!
 
crimp said:
Malcom, Thanks for the reply. Yes I am talking about after I mixdown and before I do anything to it. And compared to other CD's it is... well, I don't know exactly how many db quieter it is, but I can say it is very noticable. One other thing I have noticed is when I use the normalize plug in or the the loudness maximizer plug in, the level goes up some, but so does the hiss. Let me also give you the scenario from the recording standpoint. The drum track was recorded with mics on the snare, bass, and one on each tom and 2 overheads. This was all sub mixed and ran to 2 tracks (Left and Right) through a compressor with only a slight amount of compression used. The guitars and bass were recorded using an sm-57 miked cabinet, with no compression. And finally, the vocals were recorded directly into the Tascam with no compression. All levels were set just below where the clip indicator lit up. Next we do a stupid thing (Ha!) because this is just what we have! We don't have a CD burner on the Tascam so we play back the Tascam with all the levels set where we want them and record this directly into Cool Edit using the monitor out on the Tascam into the line in on a computer. We also have to set the output level of the Tascam to avoid clipping in Cool Edit. (Go ahead, flames everywhere!) Hey, we are just trying to play with the cards we are dealt!!!
Click to expand...


Cool,
No problem man. They dont bash too bad in here ! You can pretty much ask anything and get some good responses. Ima read your post again and try to figure out your chain a little bit,, but I do have one question,,, If you bypass the compressors,, does the signal get louder ? Somebody else will eventually jump in.
 
Well, actually, the only compression used was a small amount on the drums. Bypassing this would only help the drums. We had a problem with clipping when the snare drum hit, and so we used the compressor to try and smooth this out. It also made the bass drum punchier.
 
crimp said:
Well, actually, the only compression used was a small amount on the drums. Bypassing this would only help the drums. We had a problem with clipping when the snare drum hit, and so we used the compressor to try and smooth this out. It also made the bass drum punchier.
Click to expand...

I was reffering more to the Gain setting on the compressor, (forget about the ratio,attack,etc,,,) even when bypassed. Also when you go from Tascam to computer line-in do the levels decrease?
 
Compression is usually best done during the mixdown if you have the capabilities to do it. That way you know exactly what you are doing in relation to the entire mix.

A few pointers-

Make sure you don't have too much bass in the mix. Bass will eat up your headroom pretty fast.

Look at the tracks with big peaks and do a very fast volume adjustment in your sound editor. You can usually zoom way in and use a Pencil tool or something to smooth out the big spikes.

When you add compression to an entire mix you usually want a slow attack time (preserves the note attack and clarity) and a slow decay (keeps the mix from breathing or pumping in a bad way). A faster attack will definately tame more of the peaks but that is usually what 'sucks the life' out of a mix.

Compression, limiting and normalizing will always raise the noise floor so you have to be sure it is as quiet as possible during tracking and mixing. Make sure to use good cables, have a quiet room, set gain stages properly, avoid too much routing of the audio and mute all unused channels on the mixer.
 
I'm not sure what the gain was set to on the compressor. The levels as far as I can tell are the same when I monitor the Tascam or the computer. I think this says that the levels are just not recorded loud enough. Am I thinking right? If this is the case, how can I record louder without lighting up the clip indicator?
 
Tex, Thanks for the pointers. Actually, the bass was a little weak after I listened to the mixdown, the snare is actually what is giving the spike. I don't think Cool Edit Pro 2 has a pencil tool, but I will check.
 
crimp said:
I'm not sure what the gain was set to on the compressor. The levels as far as I can tell are the same when I monitor the Tascam or the computer. I think this says that the levels are just not recorded loud enough. Am I thinking right? If this is the case, how can I record louder without lighting up the clip indicator?
Click to expand...

Check that compressor again while you are tracking,, or better yet like Tex said,, try to use the compressor after mixing. If your levels are close on the Tascam and the Puter,, then thats not your problem.. Im leaning towards that compressor during traking. Also check those aux, sends ,etc on your submix before you 2 channel to the tascam.

Easier,,, Bypass everything. run staight mic>micpre>submix>tascam,, then check your levels. If it's better or what you expected,,, backtrack from there.

Malcolm
 
OK, I'm a little confused. How is the compressor on the drums making the whole mix too quiet? Also, how would seperately tracking each drum give me a louder mix? Also, shouldn't I use a compressor or limiter or something to cut off those peaks. That way I can raise the overall level without those peaks clipping. In other words when I'm setting my levels before tracking, I'm having to turn down the levels so that those peaks don't clip. But If I were to lower the peaks, then I could turn the levels up higher before anything clipped. What am I missing here? Sorry for the confusion!
 
crimp said:
OK, I'm a little confused. How is the compressor on the drums making the whole mix too quiet? Also, how would seperately tracking each drum give me a louder mix? Also, shouldn't I use a compressor or limiter or something to cut off those peaks. That way I can raise the overall level without those peaks clipping. In other words when I'm setting my levels before tracking, I'm having to turn down the levels so that those peaks don't clip. But If I were to lower the peaks, then I could turn the levels up higher before anything clipped. What am I missing here? Sorry for the confusion!
Click to expand...

LOL,
I feel ya man,,,,, Let me try again,,

1. How are you compressing the drums?

Mic>Presser>Micpre>submixer?
or Mic>Micpre>mixer> presser as a send,aux,etc ?
Mic>Micpre>presser?
etc.

2. Tracking each drum for a louder mix

Dats a whole nother topic,,,imaging maybe ?

3.Compressor or limiter to cut off those peaks?

I would use a preeser during tracking for smoothness not to make it louder. Limiter,,, save that for the post mix if possible.

4.< In other words when I'm setting my levels before tracking, I'm having to turn down the levels so that those peaks don't clip.

Turn down the levels? uhm does that mean quieter ?

5. <But If I were to lower the peaks, then I could turn the levels up higher before anything clipped. What am I missing here? >

Maybe level balancing ? You may be squashing this portion of your tracking. You may not have peaks,, but your dynamic range may be gone.
Turn down the levels? uhm does that mean quieter ?

Your not confusing me,, I just trying to visualise what your doing without really being there.

Send more info and questions,,, youll get your answer from this forum sooner or later.

Malcolm
 
crimp said:
Hi all, first of all... I'm a newbie. Please don't hold that against me. I may ask stupid questions, but thats the best way to learn! Now with that out of the way, I'll get on to the meat and potatoes! My band has just recently purchased a Tascam 788 and we are in the process of recording a few songs. So far we are having trouble with the overall volume level of the completed mix. Our mixes sound good as far as tone and overall sound, they are just too quiet! I have a copy of Cool Edit Pro and T-Racks 24 but I'm new to these also! I've tried compressing and limiting and then normalizing, but this seems to suck the life out of the tracks. I've used the presets in T-Racks and have been successful in bringing the level up somewhat, but it's still too quiet. My question is this... We didn't use a lot of compression when we recorded these tracks, so there are a lot of large spikes in the waveform. This is the part that has to be squashed to get the level up. Should we try more compression when we record? Can anyone give me any settings in T-Racks or any of the Direct X plug ins for Cool Edit to help deal with this problem. I think I have some pretty good tools... I just don't have the experience yet to use them correctly!!!! Thanks in advance for your help.

Greg Thomas
www.justanotherbeggar.com
Click to expand...
First, mix louder. up the levels of each instrument equally until they are all as loud as sounds good (not clipping the stereo buss). Concentrate on making the mix sound good not loud.

Then use T-racks to master just for your personal listening. It really is a process of trial and error. I try to use as little of each module as possible and almost none of the stereo enhancement as possible. If you are serious about making a commercial quality album find a good mastering engineer to do the 'loudening' of your album (though they do so much more)...they do a much better job.
 
malcolm123 said:


1. How are you compressing the drums?

Mic>Presser>Micpre>submixer?
or Mic>Micpre>mixer> presser as a send,aux,etc ?
Mic>Micpre>presser?
etc.
Click to expand...

Here's my chain. Mic>12chmixer>compressor>Tascam
malcolm123 said:


4.< In other words when I'm setting my levels before tracking, I'm having to turn down the levels so that those peaks don't clip.

Turn down the levels? uhm does that mean quieter ?
Click to expand...

My Tascam has mic pre's with trim adjustments. When I say turning down the levels, I mean backing the trim off until I no longer clip. Here's how I usually set up. I plug in my mic directly to the Tascam (or in the case of the drums, I plug the mic/mixer/compressor into the Tascam). I have the vocalist or the person playing the instrument play or sing a passage. I watch the level meter on the Tascam, then I either turn the instrument up or down, or I turn the trim setting up or down. I adjust this until l I get the level shown on the Tascam level meter level as close to clipping as possible with out going over. Is this the correct way to set up? This may be where my problem lies!
malcolm123 said:


5. <But If I were to lower the peaks, then I could turn the levels up higher before anything clipped. What am I missing here? >

Maybe level balancing ? You may be squashing this portion of your tracking. You may not have peaks,, but your dynamic range may be gone.
Turn down the levels? uhm does that mean quieter ?
Click to expand...
Yes, I'm tweaking the trim adjustment or the actual volume of the instrument to avoid clipping.

Guys, I really appreciate the replies and the help, and I'm sure the whole band would say the same thing!!!!!!
Greg
 
crimp said:
Here's my chain. Mic>12chmixer>compressor>Tascam


My Tascam has mic pre's with trim adjustments. When I say turning down the levels, I mean backing the trim off until I no longer clip. Here's how I usually set up. I plug in my mic directly to the Tascam (or in the case of the drums, I plug the mic/mixer/compressor into the Tascam). I have the vocalist or the person playing the instrument play or sing a passage. I watch the level meter on the Tascam, then I either turn the instrument up or down, or I turn the trim setting up or down. I adjust this until l I get the level shown on the Tascam level meter level as close to clipping as possible with out going over. Is this the correct way to set up? This may be where my problem lies!

Yes, I'm tweaking the trim adjustment or the actual volume of the instrument to avoid clipping.

Guys, I really appreciate the replies and the help, and I'm sure the whole band would say the same thing!!!!!!
Greg
Click to expand...


Ok,
Im assumming that none of these instruments are being played in a sound room,, so therefore you cant effectively monitor your mixing levels before tracking without feedback. If this is the case,, then if you put on a set of headphones and monitor all of the levels before recording with your monitor volumes at 0,,, are they loud enough then?

Malcolm
 
crimp said:
Here's my chain. Mic>12chmixer>compressor>Tascam


My Tascam has mic pre's with trim adjustments. When I say turning down the levels, I mean backing the trim off until I no longer clip. Here's how I usually set up. I plug in my mic directly to the Tascam (or in the case of the drums, I plug the mic/mixer/compressor into the Tascam). I have the vocalist or the person playing the instrument play or sing a passage. I watch the level meter on the Tascam, then I either turn the instrument up or down, or I turn the trim setting up or down. I adjust this until l I get the level shown on the Tascam level meter level as close to clipping as possible with out going over. Is this the correct way to set up? This may be where my problem lies!

Yes, I'm tweaking the trim adjustment or the actual volume of the instrument to avoid clipping.

Guys, I really appreciate the replies and the help, and I'm sure the whole band would say the same thing!!!!!!
Greg
Click to expand...

One more thing,, and this may be a stupid question on my part, BUT,, when you say not loud enough,,, do you mean that your mixes do not sound like Store bought CD's ( ie.. Volume levels, presence, width, in your face,,etc )... Just curious !!??

Malcolm
 
No, these are not in a sound room. I sometimes use headphones to monitor while I'm setting levels before tracking, but mostly I try to get the highest level on the level meter without clipping. I also use a monitor in the room, turned down so as to not cause feedback. We use this to monitor while we are tracking so we can hear what we are playing over (drum track, etc.) Could this monitor be causing a problem? My Tascam has a level meter for each track and a clip indicator on each track. After tracking, everything seems to be loud enough, but this is hard to tell, because if it doesn't seem loud enough, I just turn up the monitor out level on the Tascam, so I don't really have a reference point on that. When I say they are not loud enough, I mean when I listen to a store bought CD, and then listen to my tracks, I have to turn the volume up 3 or 4 notches (I know, a notch is a relative term!) to get the same sound. On one of my tracks, the beginning is just a clean strat and a vocal, and then it kicks in with drum, bass, distorted guitar, and vocals. I listened to a store bought CD that has the same set up, quiet at the beginning and then kicks in, and then I listened to my track. Without turning up the volume control, I could not hear the beginning of my track very well. Over all, my tracks are just quieter.
Greg
 
crimp said:
No, these are not in a sound room. I sometimes use headphones to monitor while I'm setting levels before tracking, but mostly I try to get the highest level on the level meter without clipping. I also use a monitor in the room, turned down so as to not cause feedback. We use this to monitor while we are tracking so we can hear what we are playing over (drum track, etc.) Could this monitor be causing a problem? My Tascam has a level meter for each track and a clip indicator on each track. After tracking, everything seems to be loud enough, but this is hard to tell, because if it doesn't seem loud enough, I just turn up the monitor out level on the Tascam, so I don't really have a reference point on that. When I say they are not loud enough, I mean when I listen to a store bought CD, and then listen to my tracks, I have to turn the volume up 3 or 4 notches (I know, a notch is a relative term!) to get the same sound. On one of my tracks, the beginning is just a clean strat and a vocal, and then it kicks in with drum, bass, distorted guitar, and vocals. I listened to a store bought CD that has the same set up, quiet at the beginning and then kicks in, and then I listened to my track. Without turning up the volume control, I could not hear the beginning of my track very well. Over all, my tracks are just quieter.
Greg
Click to expand...


A Ha !!!

Your answer to your problem is Mastering !!!!

So basically you really dont have a problem. You are comparing your mixes to mastered CD's. This could be a major difference depending on how the mix was done. There are some people in here who have the skills to do a mix that would be close if not better souding than the Store boughts. It just depends on what CD you are referencing. You could prolly find some store bought CD's that your mix are louder than.. It just all depends on who mastered it and the genra,, etc. Most of the store bought CD's are mastered pretty loud,, ( Do a search for Loud wars or something) Whats you need to do know is another post stating your type of music, any type of post processing tools you may have, Post your track for these people to listen to as well as what Store bought CD you are trying to get your tracks to sound like,,,,,, Sit back and wait for the responses. If your mix is good and clean,, youll be straight !!!

you had me thrown off for a minute .. LOL

Malcolm
 
crimp said:
No, these are not in a sound room. I sometimes use headphones to monitor while I'm setting levels before tracking, but mostly I try to get the highest level on the level meter without clipping. I also use a monitor in the room, turned down so as to not cause feedback. We use this to monitor while we are tracking so we can hear what we are playing over (drum track, etc.) Could this monitor be causing a problem? My Tascam has a level meter for each track and a clip indicator on each track. After tracking, everything seems to be loud enough, but this is hard to tell, because if it doesn't seem loud enough, I just turn up the monitor out level on the Tascam, so I don't really have a reference point on that. When I say they are not loud enough, I mean when I listen to a store bought CD, and then listen to my tracks, I have to turn the volume up 3 or 4 notches (I know, a notch is a relative term!) to get the same sound. On one of my tracks, the beginning is just a clean strat and a vocal, and then it kicks in with drum, bass, distorted guitar, and vocals. I listened to a store bought CD that has the same set up, quiet at the beginning and then kicks in, and then I listened to my track. Without turning up the volume control, I could not hear the beginning of my track very well. Over all, my tracks are just quieter.
Greg
Click to expand...


Also
Using those monitors in the same room could be giving you phase issues. Another Topic though.... Do a search in here on Phase. Tracks out of phase will sit back further,,, meaning not as loud.
 
Sorry dude, I didn't mean to throw you off! I'll try a new post. I sincerely appreciate all your help!!! BTW - which forum would be best to post this in, or is this one OK.
Greg
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top