Help! I Need Help And Lots Of It!

[adamfund]

I need a lot of help. I'm doing a couple of songs for the band I'm in and things aren't going very well. Everything has been recorded pretty well, I'm satisfied with that, but the mixing and mastering is a completely different story. I recorded everything on an Alesis ADAT machine with Mackie Mixing board and I'm trying to transfer all the tracks to Cool Edit 2.0. It's a nightmare. I can't get each indvidual track to line up and I don't know what to do. My teacher never stays after to help me, so today I took 8 tracks, played the song onto Cool Edit and then recorded it. So now I have 8 tracks of the same sounds...which doesn't help me much. I don't know what to do and I want to get this done. Also, I don't really know what I'm doing when it comes to Cool Edit so I NEED A TON OF HELP WITH THAT TOO.

Does anyone have any suggestions for lining up the tracks so everything is timed correctly? Does anyone have suggestions for my Cool Edit problems? Also, I need help with effects too. I JUST NEED HELP AND LOTS OF ADVICE.

 

[mshilarious]

I need a lot of help. I'm doing a couple of songs for the band I'm in and things aren't going very well. Everything has been recorded pretty well, I'm satisfied with that, but the mixing and mastering is a completely different story. I recorded everything on an Alesis ADAT machine with Mackie Mixing board and I'm trying to transfer all the tracks to Cool Edit 2.0. It's a nightmare. I can't get each indvidual track to line up and I don't know what to do. My teacher never stays after to help me, so today I took 8 tracks, played the song onto Cool Edit and then recorded it. So now I have 8 tracks of the same sounds...which doesn't help me much. I don't know what to do and I want to get this done. Also, I don't really know what I'm doing when it comes to Cool Edit so I NEED A TON OF HELP WITH THAT TOO.

Does anyone have any suggestions for lining up the tracks so everything is timed correctly? Does anyone have suggestions for my Cool Edit problems? Also, I need help with effects too. I JUST NEED HELP AND LOTS OF ADVICE.

The easy way is to get a soundcard with an ADAT input.

The hard way is to transfer 'em two at a time and spend a lot of time on careful lineup. To help this along, record a single drumbeat at the beginning of a song on all tracks. Then just line up the drumbeat.

 

[adamfund]

none

Hey,

I don't think I'll be able to get a DAT soundcard. Can you explain more about transfering them? I need MORE SUGGESTIONS AND MORE HELP. Please, recommend some articles I can read. I want to create the best thing I can.

 

[formerlyfzfile]

Patience ..........

You CAN line the tracks up.

I had tracked a demo for a friends band onto a VS880 8track and all tracks (up to 20 for one of the songs, using the virtual tracks) were sent, 2 at a time, panned hard left and hard right to CEP 2.0. Then they were all lined up BY HAND (or by mouse more acurately) and then tweezed to taste.

It takes a lot of patience but it can be done.

My method was this.

Step 1: transfer tracks into the computer. (I used Sound Forge because I think it works a little better than CEP's editor ..... but thats just my opinion).
Save all files clearly labled for your later convenience.
Dont worry about getting each file length exactly the same, just get em in there raw.
Use the highest sample rate your soundcard can support and worry about dithering last.
Try and get the tracks into the computer as hot as possible but make sure there is NO clipping. If you have a 24bit soundcard then leaving about 6dB of headroom for the peaks is plenty hot. This means you may have to preview each track before recording in the computer 1st. Its time consuming but once you get a rhythm for dumping the tracks in you'll get it going fairly quickly.

Step 2: Trim each of the tracks and make silent the parts where there is no music. Leave a few seconds of silence at the beginning of each to give you some room when lining up the tracks.
If the track is played throughout the whole song just trim the ends. If the track is played intermittently throughout then you can either just make the inbetween parts silent while keeping one long file (which may make the aligning easier) or break up each segment into separate files.

IF YOU BREAK UP A TRACK INTO DIFFERENT SEGMENTS THEN MAKE SURE EACH IS PRECISELY LABELED!!!
Believe me it sucks when you cant figure out if its a verse, chorus or bridge part.

But making the unplayed parts silent is like gating by hand and will make the mix much cleaner.

Save all of the trimmed tracks seperately...... leaving the original tracks dumped in as the backups. It takes up some hard drive space but it will be well worth it if something should happen to one of the tracks down the line. You wont have to set up the ADAT again.

Step 3: Create a new session in CEP and start putting the files in. I usually start by opening up just the rhythm tracks in the organizer. Right away I save and name the session, before I even put any tracks up. SAVE OFTEN.

Depending on the type and structure of the song, you may find it easiest to put the drums down 1st ..... unless the song has a long acoustic intro or is all acoutstic.

Step 4: Assuming the drums are the time aligning foundation ..... place markers for each song section from just the drum track. i.e. use the markers to lable the songs arrangement. This way when you need to lay down that extra rhythm guitar part that only plays on the pre-chorus bridge after the solo...you can just goto the marker labled Pre-Chorus-Bridge after the marker labled SOLO and align from there.
Right click and LOCK IN TIME. SAVE.

Step 5: .... and beyond ..... line up ech track one by one starting with the more fundamental and less sporadic tracks and after checking and double checking that it is indeed correctly aligned (use the zoom functions to get finer adjustments) then right click and LOCK IN TIME for each track.
I save after EVERY track is aligned because sometimes it will take a while for each track and sometimes you cant tell its not quite iin time until you hear like half of the song ..... well that might be exagerating..... but you get it.

Anyway, once you have all of the tracks lined up and LOCKED IN TIME then the actual mixing can begin.

Sometimes I would spend two nights just lining up one song and then start mixing on the 3rd evening.

Its a bitch but you will develop your own system .... this is just mine for example .... and it will flow ...... it might flow slowly but it will flow.

Oh ...... you may want just take a rough mix of the songs from the ADAT into the computer to reference side by side when aligning...... it doesnt even have to be a stereo file .... mono worked for me just for rough reference.

I would STRONGLY suggest not including the rest of the band into these "dumping sessions" because there is not much they can do other than sit and be bored or worse..... DISRTACTING to you. Its better (in my experience)to dump the songs in and get them lined up and then have a mixing session where everybody can witness "real" progress and have input .... although maybe your band dynamic doesnt function that way but you get the jist.

Be patient.
Be determined.
Be thourough.
Be confident that the end product can be worth the time and tedium of this inbetween step.

Start with this step 1st and then we can get to actual specific mixing problems .... which I may or may not be the best person to help with as I'm certainly no pro .... but I can try and some of the other more experienced folks on this BBS may be better able to help once you get to that point.

-mike

 

[ryanlikestorock]

Assuming that the A-DAT is playing back at exactly the same speed every time and that the recorder is recording at exactly the same speed, they should line up.

I've had the tracks not line up both digitally and in analog-to-digital formats and there isn't really anything you can do about it if one of your machines has even a slight flutter in its recording or playback speed.

How is everyone else in the class doing this?

If you have any budget, get a soundcard that's designed for this, either an A-DAT input or something like the Delta1010LT with 8 inputs.

 

[formerlyfzfile]

Oooppps....

Yeah ..... I forgot that ADAT is a tape.

So, as Ryan said, my above statement kind of assumes the ADAT is playing back at the same speed for each track.

I dont know if it works for ADAT tapes but I dont see why it wouldn't ..... fast forward and rewing the tape from end to end a couple of times to wind the tape evenly. If you've been playing one song over and over on just one spot on the tape then sometimes the tape will tighten up at that point unevenly and play back at differing speeds.

-mike

 

[mshilarious]

The spec for wow and flutter on ADATs is listed as unmeasurable, so if yours is maintained, this really shouldn't be an issue. Unlike an analog recorder, data from digital tape hits a buffer before output so minor tape playback differences aren't a problem. Consider that you can link 16 ADATs together without any trouble.

CD players could in theory have the same issue, but try transferring the audio from a CD track four or six times, and line up the resulting waves. It's quite easy.

 

[adamfund]

None

Alright,

I think I've figured out what I'm going to do or at least I have a general plan, tell me if you think this might work.

I forgot to mention I have a Tascam CD Burner in the rack, so I planned on recording each track onto the cd and then transferring those tracks one by one onto Cool Edit Pro. Hopefully they should and will line up. Also, last night, a friend of mine sent me a copy of Cool Edit Pro 2.1. Maybe if I could get those tracks onto a cd, I could do everything else here. I really don't know a whole lot about eq'ing and how and when to do it. I've only done 3-band eq on the Mackie Mixer at school and that doesn't do a whole lot, just has more of a raw, live sound.

One problem I kept running into Tuesday afterschool was I would all 8 tracks by playing the song, but after I played it, the cymbols would hiss and everything seemed a lot louder than it was. Whenever I burn tracks or songs onto the cd through the Tascam, everytime I play it in a car cd player, cd player, or on the computer, its ALWAYS really quiet and really flat. I suppose if I eq my song more, this will fix the problem?

Formerlyfzfile, can you re-explain your method, I' m a newbie at all this and a lot of your terms, I didn't really understand or I didn't quite get what you were saying. It sounded like it would work though. I'm going to try to rewind and fast forward through my song a couple of times and see if that will help, because I just kept playing the song over and over again and only rewinding.

When I would record 1 of the drum tracks, it was an overhead condenser, it would always line up right. Our drummer would count off and then play. When I'd try to record the second overhead drum track, the counts would be off and the 2nd track would start later than the first? Any suggestions? Actually, whenever I tried to record guitar, bass, or vocals with the drums, it would usually be off to. Thinking about this makes me so angry because I usually spend 2 to 3 hours afterschool and never really get anything done. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to better use my time with Cool Edit Pro?


Thanks
Adam

 

[adamfund]

none

Alright,

I think I've figured out what I'm going to do or at least I have a general plan, tell me if you think this might work.

I forgot to mention I have a Tascam CD Burner in the rack, so I planned on recording each track onto the cd and then transferring those tracks one by one onto Cool Edit Pro. Hopefully they should and will line up. Also, last night, a friend of mine sent me a copy of Cool Edit Pro 2.1. Maybe if I could get those tracks onto a cd, I could do everything else here. I really don't know a whole lot about eq'ing and how and when to do it. I've only done 3-band eq on the Mackie Mixer at school and that doesn't do a whole lot, just has more of a raw, live sound.

One problem I kept running into Tuesday afterschool was I would all 8 tracks by playing the song, but after I played it, the cymbols would hiss and everything seemed a lot louder than it was. Whenever I burn tracks or songs onto the cd through the Tascam, everytime I play it in a car cd player, cd player, or on the computer, its ALWAYS really quiet and really flat. I suppose if I eq my song more, this will fix the problem?

Formerlyfzfile, can you re-explain your method, I' m a newbie at all this and a lot of your terms, I didn't really understand or I didn't quite get what you were saying. It sounded like it would work though. I'm going to try to rewind and fast forward through my song a couple of times and see if that will help, because I just kept playing the song over and over again and only rewinding.

When I would record 1 of the drum tracks, it was an overhead condenser, it would always line up right. Our drummer would count off and then play. When I'd try to record the second overhead drum track, the counts would be off and the 2nd track would start later than the first? Any suggestions? Actually, whenever I tried to record guitar, bass, or vocals with the drums, it would usually be off to. Thinking about this makes me so angry because I usually spend 2 to 3 hours afterschool and never really get anything done. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to better use my time with Cool Edit Pro?


Thanks
Adam

 

[formerlyfzfile]

1st things 1st .......

I'm a little confused as to what you are describing.

When I would record 1 of the drum tracks, it was an overhead condenser, it would always line up right. Our drummer would count off and then play. When I'd try to record the second overhead drum track, the counts would be off and the 2nd track would start later than the first?

This sounds to me like you used a single mic to record drums and THEN used a second pass to OVERDUB anither drum overhead track. !!! ????
Why on earth would you do that????
I must be misunderstanding.

What, exactly, was the method you used to record your dracks onto the ADAT. Lets start with that because I'm uncertain if you're saying that the ADAT tracks dont line up or that they dont line up after you put them in CEP.

Actually, whenever I tried to record guitar, bass, or vocals with the drums, it would usually be off to.

O.k. I think I get it ......

If you are talking about recording the tracks from the ADAT to CEP (could we refer to this as "transferring" .... just for clarity on my part .... i.e you RECORDED onto the ADAT and TRANSFERRED to CEP) then this sounds to me like you are tranferring the 1st drum track into CEP and then trying to play that track back and syncronise the second ADAT track being transfered into CEP.

Unless you have some kind of synchronizing signal between the ADAT and Cool Edit (like MIDI Machine Conrol or a SYMPTE lock) then this wont happen unless you are very lucky.

Forget about lining any tracks up until all ADAT track are loaded into the computer.
Send all of the ADAT tracks into the computer seperately and independantly.
Dont worry about how they relate to each other at all ...YET.

Like mshilarious said, the ADAT should play all tracks at the same speed so putting them to CD first is redundant and unneccessary .... except as a back up for the files.

A fast way to transfer the ADAT tracks is this.

Put TRACK 1 of the ADAT through CHANNEL 1 of the Mackie board and TRACK 2 of the ADAT through CHANNEL 2 of the mixer.
Pan Channel 1 hard Left and Channel 2 hard Right.
Use the Cool Edit stereo editor (there is a button in the upper left corner in the tool bar with either a single wave form or multiple wave forms ..... so you can toggle between the editor and multitrack..... get into the editor).

Press the record button to record a new waveform and set it up for a stereo, 44.1K, 16bit recording ..... if your soundcard is 24bit then select the 32 bit floating button .... which will actually record in 24bits.

Basically what you are doing is transferring 2 tracks at a time from the ADAT, independantly, to the left and right sides of a single stereo CEP file. This will allow you to transfer all 8 ADAT tracks into CEP in only 4 passes. You can then later split the 4 stereo files into 8 seperate mono files by highlighting the upper (left side) or lower (right side) of the waveform and right click to Copy to New. This is your new seperate mono file. Save AS ... whatever ... right overhead ... lead guitar etc.

Actually for something like overheads it will be easier to transfer them into CEP as a stereo pair and leave them as a stereo file ..... unless they are really out of wack with each other sound-wise.

So you are sending the ADAT tracks, 2 at a time, through the mixer and into the computer..... saving each file seperately.

Dont use the Mackie's EQ at all and only use as much channel gain as you need to get the levels in CEP up to a hot level with NO clipping (going over the 0dB level) .... clipping is irreversible and ugly.

You may have to do a few partial passes to get the levels set (one reason why I prefer Sound Forge) but take the time to optimise the levels of the file from the start and you will be better off at the final mix.

In this whole process so far there is NO mixing involved and you you are not yet to the point of lining any tracks up.

All tracks need to be transferred into the computer before you do any of that.

Is this making any sense???


-mike

-mike

 

[adamfund]

OK, I Think I Understand

From what your saying Formelyfzfile, I think I can understand most of it. I'll just repeat what you said in my own terms and develop a system for it.

1. On the Mackie Mixer, turn all of the EQ to the Unity Postion or Flat. Adjust all of the channel gains until there is no more clipping.

2. Since Overhead 1 and Overhead 2 of the drum tracks are practically the same tracks, I will just pan Overhead 1 all the way to the left, and Overhead 2 all the way to the right.

3. After all the "eq" is adjusted on the board and the gain is set, then I'll start transfering tracks. ***THERE IS WHERE I GOT LOST***

4. I didn't quite understand how to Put TRACK 1 of the ADAT through CHANNEL 1 of the Mackie board and TRACK 2 of the ADAT through CHANNEL 2 of the mixer. How did I hook all of this up and what kind of cables do I use? Let me TRY and explain the wiring of the ADAT to the Mixer. Basically, there are a TON of cables connecting the ADAT, the Mixer, the Compressor Gate, and the TASCAM cd burner. ***I'm not quite sure where or how to hook up Track 1 of the ADAT through CHANNEL 1 of the Mackie Board, wouldn't they already be hooked up for transfering? Could you maybe provide a diagram or a very detailed explanation of hooking up the ADAT to the mixer to CEP?

5. There is also a Roland V-8 connected to CEP that I would use for transfering tracks onto CEP. Do I need to disconnect the Roland and somehow hook up the ADAT to CEP? I think if I tried to do that, I would be in over my head. Is there any way I can transfer my tracks onto the Roland in 8 seperate tracks? Or 4 stero files like you said? I need some clairty on this. When I've being using CEP to transfer the tracks, I'm only doing it through Track 1 and 2 of the Roland, for Left and Right. Do I need to use other channels or can I just use Channel 1 & 2 for transfering OR should I just find out how to skip using the Roland and go straight though the ADAT. If this is the case, someone is going to have to explain how to transfer without using the ADAT.

Any suggestions on estimating the gain level? Whenever I recorded, it would record softly and then clip when I'd play it back. Maybe one reason that happened was because I had all of the Channel Faders nearly up to the top? Would it help if I put the Channel Faders on low and the gain low too?

Thanks everyone for helping me this far, slowly but surely I'm starting to understand this stuff. Please help me a little more so I can transfer tracks into CEP, mix, and master, and produce a masterpiece.

One more thing, is there any chance that I could just record all of the 8 tracks onto a cd and then transfer them onto CEP? Would that affect the sound at all? I have CEP now at my house so it might help if I could do everything here. Tell me what you think.

Thanks
Adam

 

[adamfund]

Check 1, 2

Is anyone still looking at this? I could use a little more help please.


-Adam