Help! haha

[Reciever80]

I need help on what I need to do to make my singing better...I've uploaded a cover I did of "push" by matchbox 20 (great song by the way...check it out if you can).

View attachment Push Matchbox 20 - Cover.mp3

Thanks in advance for the help, I know I could use some. As for the cover itself, the vocals do drown out the drums and guitar a bit, but I figured it would help with this anyways so I didn't bother fixing it...the final version of it would have that volume lowered.

 

[chrisharris]

Question...are you trying to sing the melody that Rob actually sang? Can you hear that the melody that you are singing is very different?

There are tons of instructional videos on YouTube that can help you improve technique, but if you cannot hear the difference in what you're singing and the original song, you're going to have to take a different approach.

 

[chrisharris]

Question 2: If you had a piano in front of you, could you pick out the notes that make up the vocal melody in the original song? I'm not asking you if you know how to play piano...I'm just asking if you would be able to hear a note that the singer sings and find it on the piano.

 

[Reciever80]

Well, I wasn't trying to do the *exact* melody (I didn't plan it out note by note). I just did what I felt sounded right, and similar to the song. Haha I learned a long time ago if you think you can perfectly replicate a song on the radio, you're going to be very disappointed.

Was there anything that you noticed immediately? In terms of anything, besides a mis-matched melody (to me it sounds right without playing the song overtop...when I compare I can (easily) tell that my version is kind of flat.

Reason I chose this song (to upload) is because I used it to try out for a coffee shop at my school. Coincidentally they told me the same thing...I was flat. 3 or 4 years ago, I was told the same thing. This girl dubbed it pretty well, she said, "You only sing three notes in a song." Which I guess is true. Problem is I feel pitch when I try and change notes, or worse I feel like I'm changing keys.

Is this right or am I completely off from what you thought? Keep in mind I wasn't trying to mimic the song, I just wanted to play it (if that makes any sense) and still sound good. If you thought it was flat and wanted me to see it for myself, I see what you're doing there.

Other than that, I don't really see anything else (besides the fact that his voice sounds 999 times better than my own >.>).

If you want to see a different song...I've got a bunch that I can record real quick (no more than a few hours) if you wanted me to.


EDIT: Oh, didn't see the second question. I can do it for guitar, sometimes I'll run my voice through all the major notes (from low E to high) if I'm slumming quite extravagantly with my voice. But I unfortunately do not have one (I'd love to have one though, I taught myself the notes and two chords on there when I was 11).

 

[chrisharris]

No, I wasn't trying to trick you or anything...I was trying to determine whether you can discern pitch differences or not, because you do seem to sing about 3 or 4 notes only. You do sing flat, but that usually involves singing less than a semitone off pitch. What you're doing is singing full steps off pitch. Like if the desired note is a C, you're singing an A flat or a G. It's not a matter of singing it in you're own style...it's not recognizable as the same song.

The reason I asked about a piano is because there's a thing you could do to help you find the right notes for recording. It involves learning the vocal melody on the piano and mimicking those notes as you record one line at a time. It won't help you sing live, but it could help you train your voice for live shows.

I'm not going to tell you that you are incapable of doing live singing. You sound young, and with enough work, you may be able to do it, but you are not a natural singer, and I think you will need live coaching so that you can get immediate feedback on your pitch issues.

 

[Reciever80]

Damn, well can't say I didn't see that coming. So your suggestion with the piano was to 'memorize' (so to speak) the melody?

I can discern quite easily when my guitar is out of tune; even the slightest difference in tone sticks out to me, when others in the room don't understand why I'm trying to get it perfect. I guess I just need to figure it out for vocals.

You're right, I am 17, so I guess I'm relatively young. So if there was a quick summary/term you could describe my problems/whatnot as, what would you call it? Just so if I talk to the much better musicians at my school, they could possible help me here and there. Or if i do decide to grab a vocal teacher. Is a vocal teacher worth it for me? I don't grasp the situation I'm in, as in I don't know the severity nor the depth of the situation. I'm sure it wouldn't be cheap, so if you had to generalize, how much work would it take? And is it worth the time, effort, and money it would require?

If you could specify (not that I don't understand you) the problem into something I can research, that would be great. Or if you knew of or have any personal tips/guides on how to get better that would be insanely appreciated.

Thanks a ton for getting to me on this, I've been trying to get good criticism for a while now.

 

[Reciever80]

If it changes anything, I have no problem singing low or high, it's just whatever pitch I start singing at I change very minimally. I've done "Go wherever you will go" to "break even" to "your beautiful" to "collide" -- Note that I'm not saying I did it "well"; just that I've (IMO) hit the pitch that the song required, whether it's low or high. Whether it's off-pitch, or off-key (Am I off key? Am I tone deaf? I'm in the dark here, although that I'm sure you've realized by now (; ).

 

[chrisharris]

Well, I'm no expert. I've had some training, and I've sung live for a couple of decades, but I've never had a vocal coach, so I have no idea what that would cost, but I assume it would be sort of like guitar lessons.

I think meeting with a vocal coach to get an evaluation would be more helpful to you than anything I or anybody else can type. I'd be curious to hear a track where you were trying to sing the melody exactly as recorded by the original artist, because I think a big part of the problem with this clip is that you're sort of having to make up your melody on the fly as you sing it. That obviously is going to lead to some missed notes. You should try to sing this song as sung by the artist and repost.

In the key that you recorded the song in, the first sung notes should be (each parentheses is one word):
(F#) (B>C#) (C#) (G#>A#) (G#)
She said I don't know...



What you sang was closer to:
(G#) (G#>A#) (A#) (F#>G#) (F#)
She said I don't know....


You're not tone deaf, dude. Even though you're singing totally different notes than are in the song, much of the time you are on pitch for the notes you are singing. If you were truly tone deaf, you wouldn't be able to pitch except by accident. And when you're NOT on pitch, I think it's because you don't know what notes to sing...like starting @ :37 in your recording...it's totally awful, but I think it wouldn't be if you had been singing the melody of the song up to that point. You would have known where to go instead of having to totally make up notes on the spot.

Good luck.

 

[Reciever80]

Well, I'm no expert. I've had some training, and I've sung live for a couple of decades, but I've never had a vocal coach

Well, anyone with over 13 million rep points is an expert in my book. Especially if you picked out the exact notes I was singing, AND the notes I should have been singing so quick and easily (man I wish I could do that).

I think meeting with a vocal coach to get an evaluation would be more helpful to you than anything I or anybody else can type. I'd be curious to hear a track where you were trying to sing the melody exactly as recorded by the original artist, because I think a big part of the problem with this clip is that you're sort of having to make up your melody on the fly as you sing it. That obviously is going to lead to some missed notes. You should try to sing this song as sung by the artist and repost.

I can do that. Should I do the melody while playing each individual note on the guitar (singing with the notes at the same time), or should I put up just the vocals as memorized, and with or without the drums/guitar in the background like the last clip? Sorry for making this so complex, I just wanna do what's easiest for you ^.^.

In other words, how would you *exactly like me to do the clip, if you have a preference.

...like starting @ :37 in your recording...it's totally awful

HAHA! I love the honesty, no sarcasm I swear. Is there something wrong if I can't hear it stand out? Like I don't think it sounds great, but I'm not exactly doubled over begging for the clip to end either. (Alright I exaggerated that a bit, what I really meant was I can't distinguish how it's off-key from the guitar. Not very well anyway. If I play a note and sing it, I can tell if I'm off or not...but I guess with the chord in general it's hard to hear).

I'll get working on that clip for you. Want the whole song or just part of it? And please, tell me how you'd like to get it/how you want me to do it. Whatever is easiest/best for you my good sir.

 

[grimtraveller]

I learned a long time ago if you think you can perfectly replicate a song on the radio, you're going to be very disappointed.

There is one of your major problems right there. You need to "unlearn" that concept because the opposite is true. I have thousands of songs spanning a hundred years and there isn't a single one that I can't sing note for note. (Except for bits in two songs by Sting ! ). What Chris has been saying is that in order to sing a song, you need to be able to accurately repeat what you hear. I've played with many people, most of whom are singers and good ones, that struggle with this and in my opinion, it's laziness more than inability. It's something that one has to work on. When I see those outtakes of things like "American idol", "X-factor", "Britain's got talent" etc, the rejected candidates simply aren't listening to what they should be repeating. If they did, I'm not saying most of them would get through, but they'd make it harder for the judges to reject them and the audience to ridicule them and the public to lambast them. In a word,
work at it.

 

[JB's Studio]

Making up singing lines on the fly? It's hard enough on an instrument. If you're just starting out singing, it'll be impossible to do well. It takes practice. I will go with the "get a vocal coach" thing, too. If you want to sing well it's worth the money. Guitar players are a dime a dozen. Guitar players who can sing well will always find work.

I've worked on a vocal improv on a song, it takes me time. I'm getting coaching too. The first time through doing something I haven't done before making it up as I go along, I screw up all over the place. Don't give up at it. The improv line can change where you take a breath. You might think of something then lose your vowel placement and go way flat. Vowel placement takes time to get consistent to where it becomes second nature.

But first, before any improv can be done, learn the vocal melody note for note, and make sure you know the words in your sleep.

It takes a lot of work. Voice is just another musical instrument. It can take years to master.

 

[chrisharris]

I'll get working on that clip for you. Want the whole song or just part of it? And please, tell me how you'd like to get it/how you want me to do it. Whatever is easiest/best for you my good sir.

I'd just like to hear it like you did this clip. In other words, just delete the vocal track and re-sing it and try to copy the vocal melody from the original song. You might turn the vocal track down a little bit on the next one when you mix it.

Keep in mind, singing this tune note for note may not help you in the least...I'm hoping we learn something by doing this, but I don't know that we will. I'm just curious to hear it.

 

[Reciever80]

There is one of your major problems right there. You need to "unlearn" that concept because the opposite is true. I have thousands of songs spanning a hundred years and there isn't a single one that I can't sing note for note. (Except for bits in two songs by Sting ! ). What Chris has been saying is that in order to sing a song, you need to be able to accurately repeat what you hear. I've played with many people, most of whom are singers and good ones, that struggle with this and in my opinion, it's laziness more than inability. It's something that one has to work on. When I see those outtakes of things like "American idol", "X-factor", "Britain's got talent" etc, the rejected candidates simply aren't listening to what they should be repeating. If they did, I'm not saying most of them would get through, but they'd make it harder for the judges to reject them and the audience to ridicule them and the public to lambast them. In a word,
work at it.

If you're saying I haven't worked at this, by calling me lazy, I've been practicing this song for well over a month. It's definitely not my best song; I didn't want to take the easy way out and do a song I've been playing for years. I wanted to pick something up that I hadn't done before, and try and get it down before the audition. Call me ambitious, call me stupid, whatever you want. I guess I just wanted to prove to myself that I could do it. Not to mention the work hours I've put in after school to buy all the equipment to record the music and overlap it (since I can't find anyone to play with, and lack the confidence to reach out beyond close friends), and pay for the drum set and lessons to provide that 'rock feel' to the songs I do. This cover wasn't something I just looked at on a website and instantly played, I've been practicing for months and the recording and editing of the clip itself took entire afternoon and 3/4 of my night.


When I said its impossible to replicate a song, it was more something I noticed about myself, not a universal fact. Keep in mind that what you can probably do in a few weeks or a month, it takes me MUCH longer to do. I wasn't born with much, if any musical talent. It's only because I've played guitar for over 7 years that I have any sense of pitch and rhythm. My learning curve for music is that I can grasp basics (such as notes and basic rhythms), but after that it drops off steeply. What I said about sounding like the actual song, I meant exact guitar tone, piano, bass, and vocal tone as well as studio quality, tambourines, EQ, auto tune, etc. Obviously with enough time and effort (and skill) you can sing a song note for note, that wasn't the point of it.

The people that get lambasted on those shows get made fun of because they refuse to admit that they lack talent; or their personalities are just so messed up that they are, well messed up people. Even then, it could be that from the stress of practicing and waiting in line (I heard it takes 3 days of waiting in line to get auditioned). I'm not refusing any advice; and hopefully I'm not coming across as rude or ungrateful (in fact this is the criticism I've been looking for for a VERY long time. Actually, I wish I had found this website sooner). If I am, I sincerely apologize for you guys are extremely generous with your time and knowledge.

/rant

Chris, I just looked at trying to do the melody today and noticed that it's not as easy as I anticipated (the songs I've done this for were a lot slower paced, but maybe I'll get used to the faster pace this song has and get it done soon), so it might take a bit to get together. No worries though, when I get close/when I'm done I'll post it up (and if it takes a REALLY long time, hopefully it won't, I'll shoot ya a PM. But that's be if it took over a month.

JB

"You might think of something then lose your vowel placement and go way flat. Vowel placement takes time to get consistent to where it becomes second nature"

Was this something you saw specifically in the clip, or are you just giving an example of a common problem?

For anyone interested, I was jamming out at the local music store, and when I was playing slide (goo goo dolls) she noticed I liked to go a bit high at some points. Don't know if it applies to this clip.

Chris (again), since the piecing-together of the melody might take a while, if you want an example of another song (if you want, you can ask for which ones I think are my best/worst songs...it's an option) I can put it together real quick and keep working on that melody when I can. That way you can also get an idea on my general style, through the various levels of comfort I have with them.

Thanks again for all the help, I seriously appreciate everything you guys are doing.

 

[grimtraveller]

If you're saying I haven't worked at this, by calling me lazy, I've been practicing this song for well over a month.

I wasn't saying you were lazy. Most of the singers I've sung and played with had better voices than mine as far as I'm concerned. But they were lazy singers. Lazy in the sense that, one has to keep on top of one's game all the time. And because they can sing, they didn't. Most humans are lazy singers, I don't mean that negatively, just that there's no real need for most people to spend time working on their voices.

Not to mention the work hours I've put in after school to buy all the equipment to record the music and overlap it (since I can't find anyone to play with, and lack the confidence to reach out beyond close friends), and pay for the drum set and lessons to provide that 'rock feel' to the songs I do. This cover wasn't something I just looked at on a website and instantly played, I've been practicing for months and the recording and editing of the clip itself took entire afternoon and 3/4 of my night.

I respect all that and I, for one, dug the guitar playing. When I say 'work at it' I mean just that. You have a problem hearing the melody that you're singing and so you're dropping notes and that makes the singing flat and hard to listen to. Some of the people with the best singing voices do that - so they have to work at hearing the melody and replicating it.
Once, I was recording my friend and in the song, there's a bit where there's the word 'living' but spread across three syllables. The first two syllables are the notes G and G# but so quickly that my friend couldn't hear it. So I kept stopping her and saying 'you're not singing it right' and I'd show her how it went and she kept saying 'But that's what I am doing !' and we had a long running fight but she just couldn't get it. I even played it on the piano for her. But she just couldn't get it. So I suggested we just stop. Two days later we went for it again and she got it first time. That was in 1999. We still laugh about it now. I have to work at it. Mick Jagger and Lauren Hill have to work at it. Most singers do. Then it becomes the bottom line, then normality.

I wasn't born with much, if any musical talent. It's only because I've played guitar for over 7 years that I have any sense of pitch and rhythm. My learning curve for music is that I can grasp basics (such as notes and basic rhythms), but after that it drops off steeply.

Whether you were born with no, little or loads of musical talent doesn't matter. The point is you're musical now. You have some good and important things going for you. More going for you than against you, actually.

Obviously with enough time and effort (and skill) you can sing a song note for note, that wasn't the point of it.

Understood. Like JB said, once you know a melody in your sleep, you can change it all you want. But know it first. Chris pointed out that you don't seem to be a natural singer. I'd agree with that. But that doesn't mean you can't become a singer that sings well.

 

[arcadeko]

You're right, I am 17, so I guess I'm relatively young.

relatively?

I didn't listen to your recording but I have had some vocal training (and your right Chris it does cost the same as a guitar lesson, because I got them from my guitar teacher) - anyway - he also recommended finding the notes on a piano/keyboard and singing the melody with the piano for practice. If I am having a lot of trouble with a vocal track i will make a scratch guitar track that plays the vocal melody to use when I overdub the vox, then just delete it in mixdown. It helps a lot when you are singing harmony parts (as in harmony with the music not multiple vocal harmonies).