Help choosing a mic for this aplication

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leddy

leddy

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I've asked a similar question a while back, but I think I'm changing strategy.

I record my jazz trio at live gigs. I have no problems getting good isolation on each instrument except my double bass. I mic it with a Shure Beta 98 HC, a small, clip-on hypercardiod condenser. The sound is excellent when the drummer is using brushes, but with sticks the volume of the drums gets way too loud in my mic. I could deal with it if the bleed was natural sounding, but it sounds like crap. It kills an otherwise great sounding recording, because I either destroy the bass sound carving out the nasty drum bleed, or I ruin the nice drum sound by leaving the nasty bleed in the bass track.

So...

My thought is to find either:

A) An omni mic for my bass (such as an Earthworks-type) that has great off-axis sound, making the drum bleed pleasant and usable.

B) A hypercardiod mic for my bass that will reduce bleed, but still has great off-axis sound just in case, if there is such a thing.

Can anyone recommend which strategy and which mic? Or another alternative? Note: I refuse to take a pick-up signal from the bass, so that's not an option. A natural-sounding, mic-like pick up for double bass has not been invented yet. The last time I posted this issue, it was more about "would an RE20 be the right mic?". I'm thinking a dynamic mic is not going to have as good of an off-axis sound as an Earthworks omni condenser, right?

Please help if you can.

Thanks.
 
If you have acess, try a dynamic mic that is designed for lower freq's as it will be far less sensitive to the point that it probably won't get any noticeable drum bleed.


Simon
 
Oktava with a hyper has worked in other applications that require isolation. I don't have direct expertise with your set up but it should work. Also can you control the environment a little, a natural barrier of some kind between the two, maybe a little more distance or angles?
 
It does seem that tight patterens and smooth off axis is at odds. The RE-20 may be an exception. EV shows it being rather flat at 90', and I'm finding joy being able to work the mic on accoustic guitar, even with two players from the 'sides.
Or as you say an omni up close?
Wayne
 
Leddy, I think the two options you present are well thought out.

You might try an omni as kind of a room mic whose real purpose is to catch the bass. It may be difficult to balance in mixing, however, as it will pick up everything.

Have you thought about figure-of-eight, with the drums in the null of that mic? That's what I would do - but then, I have some really nice ribbons for that situation. Perhaps a cheap multipattern condensor like the SP B3?

Or, as you contemplate, use a mic with superior off-axis response. Sennheiser MD 421/441, Beyer 201; the Oktava MK012 isn't bad.

Good luck.
 
I've tried the Oktavas. I use a pair on the drum kit that produces killer results, AND had one on the bass (I own 3), but the bleed was still enormous and sounded very different from what went in the drum mics. The results have been better with the little Shure condenser because I can get it real close to the bass since it's a clip-on. Proximity effect then becomes an issue on top of what I already mentioned, though. That's another reason why the omni comes to mind.

I guess we're narrowing it down to an omni, or good dynamic like the MD421/441, RE20, or possibly a Beyer. I thought about the cardioid ribbon one as well, the M160 I think is the number? Perhaps a figure 8 would work. That's the problem - it gets expensive to experiment!

Thanks for the ideas, keep them coming if you have them.
 
2lim said:
If you have acess, try a dynamic mic that is designed for lower freq's as it will be far less sensitive to the point that it probably won't get any noticeable drum bleed.


Simon
Click to expand...

I tried an AKG D112 - The bass sounded good, but the cymbal bleed was the worst of all things I tried in terms of sound quality. The drummer I play with has top shelf cymbals, they sound nice. My humble Oktavas make beautiful recordings when I solo the drum tracks. When I bring up the bass, the drums all go to hell.
 
I would use a dynamic. You're right. Off axis response is not that good, but the bleed will be far less. I use AKG D112 in a similar situation with very good results. Best of luck.-Richie
 
leddy said:
I tried an AKG D112 - The bass sounded good, but the cymbal bleed was the worst of all things I tried in terms of sound quality. The drummer I play with has top shelf cymbals, they sound nice. My humble Oktavas make beautiful recordings when I solo the drum tracks. When I bring up the bass, the drums all go to hell.
Click to expand...

Maybe instead of trying to get rid of the bleed, you should try making it not sound like crap. Tried a ribbon? Should roll off the highs of the cymbal a bit without sounding too ragged off-axis. Worth a shot, anyway.
 
dgatwood said:
Maybe instead of trying to get rid of the bleed, you should try making it not sound like crap. Tried a ribbon? Should roll off the highs of the cymbal a bit without sounding too ragged off-axis. Worth a shot, anyway.
Click to expand...

That's pretty much what I'm looking to do.

leddy said:
My thought is to find either:

A) An omni mic for my bass (such as an Earthworks-type) that has great off-axis sound, making the drum bleed pleasant and usable.

B) A hypercardiod mic for my bass that will reduce bleed, but still has great off-axis sound just in case, if there is such a thing.
Click to expand...

The question was what mic would be best; in other words, which omni mic has the smoothest off-axis response, or is there a tight-pattern mic with a smooth off-axis response?
 
oktava has a hyper cap for the 012, I've got one, you pay shipping I'll let you try it.
I've also got a C3 I'll let you try out, it has omni, fig 8 and card.
 
Big Kenny said:
oktava has a hyper cap for the 012, I've got one, you pay shipping I'll let you try it.
I've also got a C3 I'll let you try out, it has omni, fig 8 and card.
Click to expand...

Wow, thanks. That's really nice of you. I'm leaning more towards omni or dynamic at the moment, so let me kick it around a bit before I put you through any trouble. Thanks again for the offer.

Let me read up on the C3...
 
Alright, I think I am down to choosing between:

The Earthworks TC20 at about $380

A Beyer M160 at about $400 or so?

An RE20 or MD421 at about $350

My assumption is the Earthwoks has the best off-axis sound but least rejection, the Beyer has better rejection but slightly worse off-axis color, followed by the RE20 or MD421 having the most rejection but worst off-axis color. Am I correct?

My gut is telling me to go with the Earthworks. Thoughts?
 
Hey, I bought the TC20. It sounds killer by itself. We'll see how it does solving my problem...
 
My suggestion would be as follows:

A Beyer M88TG hypercardoid with a reputaton for excellent bass recording.

work the position of the instruments and the mic so that the offending drum sounds are maximum off-axis.
 
Innovations said:
My suggestion would be as follows:

A Beyer M88TG hypercardoid with a reputaton for excellent bass recording.

work the position of the instruments and the mic so that the offending drum sounds are maximum off-axis.
Click to expand...

The only dynamics I know well are the Shure 57/58's. Can you compare the M88TG to one of those?
 
leddy said:
The only dynamics I know well are the Shure 57/58's. Can you compare the M88TG to one of those?
Click to expand...
Tighter pattern, better lower frequency response.
 
Innovations said:
Tighter pattern, better lower frequency response.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your input.

How 'bout off-axis? The Shure mics reject off-axis well, so the Beyer should kick butt, however, the leakage that occurs with the 57/58 is usually cardboard-like in my experience. Will the bleed on the Beyer be more natural?
 
As far as dynamic mics go, you won't get a better off-axis response than with an Electrovoice. My first inclination would be to go with an RE-20, but another thought might be to look at an omni-directional dynamic like the 635A. That would give you sort of the best of both worlds, as it would be less sensitive than a condenser and probably pick up less of the drums, while giving you the smoother off-axis response of an omni. Plus they just sound good.
.
 
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