Headphones for mixing

[noisedude]

You're crazy. Nice of you to join in, though.

 

[TheDewd]

Buwahahaha!! You're hilarious!!!

Yeah, you're right. I'm probably just using crap headphones, that would explain it.

What are you talking about, "speaker-like"? What is "speaker-like" about having a pair of speakers clamped over your ears, with no reflections, stereo merging or sense of space?

And where's your damn proof that you're right?

Yes you were using crap. Tell me what you were using...go ahead!

Have you ever heard of the AKG K1000 headphones? Do a little reasearch and come back to tell me it isn't "speaker like" LOL!

The damn proof will come when engineers will TRY using high end headphones and thus busting the incrurable myth that mixing on headphones is bad.

 

[TheDewd]

You're crazy. Nice of you to join in, though.

Not crazy, just trying to bust that myth. FACT is that headphones can be much flatter than monitors, especially when you factor in the equation that headphones don't care about the room acoustics.

 

[noisedude]

Err ... FACT is that people are hearing what you're saying and you're still missing the point. Cream rises, people aren't stupid, and if mixing on headphones produced better results than with monitors, you wouldn't be looking so silly right now.

 

[noisedude]

Have you ever heard of the AKG K1000 headphones? Do a little reasearch and come back to tell me it isn't "speaker like" LOL!

Yep, and they look awfully like a pair of speakers clamped around the head ... we in the 'biz' like to call them 'headphones'.

And check this great quote from one online retailer:

"The K 1000 are a unique design that is the equivalent of wearing a pair of loudspeakers on the head."

Wow ... a pair of speakers on the head ... you're right, Dewd, headphones are nothing like speakers on the head at all ...

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

Not crazy, just trying to bust that myth. FACT is that headphones can be much flatter than monitors, especially when you factor in the equation that headphones don't care about the room acoustics.

Yes, and as I point out in my article, they take the room out of the equation and stick two SMALL rooms around each of your ears.......... the whole issue with headphone mixing has NOTHING to do with the quality of the cans as you seem to believe, and everything to do with the way the ear responds to "speakers" directly coupled to them...............

It isn't impossible to mix on cans, just very difficult to do well...........

 

[bigwillz24]

Not crazy, just trying to bust that myth. FACT is that headphones can be much flatter than monitors, especially when you factor in the equation that headphones don't care about the room acoustics.

Anything around your ear flaps is gonna change the way you perceive things.

Don't believe me?

Heres a test for ya!... Cup your hands behind your ears hear the difference?
You changed the frequency response of your ears.

News Flash! Guess what your doing when you put those headphones on?

 

[TheDewd]

Yes, and as I point out in my article, they take the room out of the equation and stick two SMALL rooms around each of your ears.......... the whole issue with headphone mixing has NOTHING to do with the quality of the cans as you seem to believe, and everything to do with the way the ear responds to "speakers" directly coupled to them...............

Tell me how does the ear responds differently with headphones than with speakers. I understand ear canals and ear shape influence the sound we hear, but with headphones, you still use the same ear canal, right ? This point is only bogus to me, because there is SO MUCH MORE going on with speakers (room, not as accurate response, phase shifts, driver tolerances, etc) that detracts from accuracy.

Really, the only thing I can agree on that is different when using headphones is the soundstage. I can agree that with headphones, it is somewhat tougher to get a real 3-D space speaker-like representation, but with high-end cans, soundstaging is SO GOOD that it's just like speakers (or 90% so...if you want to be anal).

Think of your argument this way...these two little rooms around your ears are much smaller and provide much better tolerance and much less resonance and frequency cut effect than having a big room. Sure, soundstaging is not quite exactly the same as with speakers, but great headphones make up for this nicely. Thus, there are NO valid reasons NOT to mix with headphones, except conservativeness, which is sad.

 

[TheDewd]

Anything around your ear flaps is gonna change the way you perceive things.

Don't believe me?

Heres a test for ya!... Cup your hands behind your ears hear the difference?
You changed the frequency response of your ears.

News Flash! Guess what your doing when you put those headphones on?

The headphones are engineered on dummy heads replicating the human head, outer ear and inner ear. When manufacturers design headphones, they make them as close as possible to speakers. The only difference between a great flat pair of studio monitors and some flat headphones is the soundstaging. Once you get used to it, mixing on headphones is as easy as mixing on monitors.

 

[TheDewd]

Err ... FACT is that people are hearing what you're saying and you're still missing the point. Cream rises, people aren't stupid, and if mixing on headphones produced better results than with monitors, you wouldn't be looking so silly right now.

I never said "better results" I said that you can mix just as well with headphones than with monitors, provided you train yourself to compensate a little for the soundstaging.

I NEVER listen to music on speakers anymore. Headphones provide so much detail and flatness. Headphones are NATURAL sounding to me now, speakers are not. I can recognize faults on high end speaker rigs like never before.
Really, for much less $$$ you can get an headphone rig that sounds as good as many $k speaker rigs and eliminate MANY problems like dealing with the room acoustics and not getting enough bass or treble extension.

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

Tell me how does the ear responds differently with headphones than with speakers. I understand ear canals and ear shape influence the sound we hear, but with headphones, you still use the same ear canal, right ? This point is only bogus to me, because there is SO MUCH MORE going on with speakers (room, not as accurate response, phase shifts, driver tolerances, etc) that detracts from accuracy.

If you would have read my article, you would have seen my explanation........

2) Same headphones, different people - not only is response and imaging skewed using headphones, but to make matters worse, each person hears differently from every other person when listening on cans. The reason for this is that the response of each person's cilia (the parts of the ear responsible for detecting different frequency vibrations) is unique to each individual. This is critical because it means that the same song, through the same phones, will sound different to each person that listens to it! And you thought translating mixes using monitors is tough!!! With headphones it's almost impossible because a well-balanced sound is a moving target from person to person!

"But wait.... so what if the response is different for each person, why is that any different from monitors?"
Good question - there is a huge difference.... the "personalized-response" effect is much more pronounced with headphones due to the proximity of the cones to a person's ears. With monitors, the room acts as a frequency-response leveller, giving a more uniform repsonse to each person hearing them, but with headphones, it's virtually direct contact between ears and the cones, there's no room effect to "level-out" the response.

Think of your argument this way...these two little rooms around your ears are much smaller and provide much better tolerance and much less resonance and frequency cut effect than having a big room. Sure, soundstaging is not quite exactly the same as with speakers, but great headphones make up for this nicely.

And this is just completely dead wrong, as I've already explained.......


You don't have to believe anything I say, and of course, you can do what you like, but if you're going to refute something, then at least back it up with facts and not conjecture and misplaced rhetoric....

 

[bigwillz24]

I understand ear canals and ear shape influence the sound we hear, but with headphones, you still use the same ear canal, right ?

Theres an ear canal for each ear right?

The only difference between a great flat pair of studio monitors and some flat headphones is the soundstaging.

Except the Frequency response of your ears... Just how do you plan to adjust for that?

Once you get used to it, mixing on headphones is as easy as mixing on monitors.

You can get used to mixing on a boombox; It's not easy but not impossible ....

Which brings me back to proove it is just as easy or easier to get a good sounding mix on headphones as it is to get on monitors.

 

[TheDewd]

If you would have read my article, you would have seen my explanation........

I re-read your article and have three comments:

1) The driver proximity argument is not valid, since headphone designers take this into account when designing their headphones (assuming it's excellent headphones). Have you ever heard of diffuse-field equalizing in headphones? It emulates an anechoic chamber with perfect acoustics. When a manufacturer designs a good headphone, they take that into account and the sound is not that different than listening to monitors.

2) I agree that the sound is more "person dependant" when using headphones than monitors, but what does that give? When I mix, I am the one who has to judge and evaluate things, not another people. This is like saying everyone should hear my mix on the monitors I mixed on to hear it right. This is silly.

3) You seem to throw away the argument saying headphones are more accurate, reveal more detail, are cheaper for the sound quality you get and are providing the needed isolation. What's up with that ?

You don't have to believe anything I say, and of course, you can do what you like, but if you're going to refute something, then at least back it up with facts and not conjecture and misplaced rhetoric....

Your arguments are some of the best examples of conjecture and misplaced rethoric. You act like you live in the 50's still, with no technological perception as to what headphones have become in recent years. Not all headphones are like the 7506, DT770 and K240M....you did know that right ?

 

[TheDewd]

Which brings me back to proove it is just as easy or easier to get a good sounding mix on headphones as it is to get on monitors.

This IS the problem here...you guys are all mixing on monitors and are so closed-minded that you don't even WANT to consider using headphones, because all you used are cheapo headphones. I learned to mix on headphones (even though everyone was telling me the opposite) and I do as nice as a job as when I mix with monitors.

When you KNOW your gear, you can mix. That's the bottom line. Whether it's headphones or monitors.

BUT!!! Saying headphones are not suitable for mixing is just PLAIN wrong, since nothing proves this, except old sayings and tradition. HELLO EVERYONE !?! We are in 2005! We can now use headphones to mix! LOL! You guys act like you just don't want to advance technologically and stick to the "old methods" cause that's all you ever knew.

 

[Harvey Gerst]

I re-read your article and have three comments:

1) The driver proximity argument is not valid, since headphone designers take this into account when designing their headphones (assuming it's excellent headphones). Have you ever heard of diffuse-field equalizing in headphones? It emulates an anechoic chamber with perfect acoustics. When a manufacturer designs a good headphone, they take that into account and the sound is not that different than listening to monitors.

If it actually "emulates an anechoic chamber", then it does not have "perfect acoustics" - an anechoic chamber is totally dead, i.e. NO acoustics.

Yet, oddly enough, I agree with some of what you're saying - but for very different reasons. With the introduction of the iPod, and the increased popularity of mp3's, it may well be that the world of popular music is headed for playback on headphones as the preferred method of listening.

If that's true, we may hafta start listening or even mixing specifically for headphones. Headphones are a different thing than speakers, Dewd. Everybody that has commented here is right about that. But, you may be right that more attention should be placed on mixing with headphones, at least in the future. Maybe even labeled as such.

Headphones do open up some new sonic capabilities, if I'm sure people will only be listening to the music on headphones.

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

This IS the problem here...you guys are all mixing on monitors and are so closed-minded that you don't even WANT to consider using headphones, because all you used are cheapo headphones. I learned to mix on headphones (even though everyone was telling me the opposite) and I do as nice as a job as when I mix with monitors.

When you KNOW your gear, you can mix. That's the bottom line. Whether it's headphones or monitors.

BUT!!! Saying headphones are not suitable for mixing is just PLAIN wrong, since nothing proves this, except old sayings and tradition. HELLO EVERYONE !?! We are in 2005! We can now use headphones to mix! LOL! You guys act like you just don't want to advance technologically and stick to the "old methods" cause that's all you ever knew.

I give up, skippy... do whatever the hell you like!

 

[grn]

no no, you CAN mix on headphones... it'll just sound bad

 

[noisedude]

I don't understand this guy's problem. No-one's disputing the accuracy ... sure, you can hear some 'faults' more easily than on a speaker system, and yes, as Harvey says, so many more people are living with their MP3 players on now that mixes should be checked for headphone compatibility, but that doesn't equate to being able to do great mixes on headphones alone.

But have it your way, Dewd, you signed up specially for this argument, so I guess it would be unfair for any of us to have the final word.

 

[Monkey Allen]

What do cd's/ albums sound like on decent monitor speakers? Can you hear the imperfections better? Can you really hear what's there?

I really would like to know

 

[noisedude]

Well on lots you can hear just how good the production and engineering was ... and on others you can hear how bad it was.

Also, there are tonnes of subtleties you never knew were there, little background effects and the like. Can be very pleasurable if you put on something really well put together.