Headphone amp...Presonus? Behringer? Other?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Mattman84
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Mattman84 said:
I'm on a pretty low budget, trying to keep this thing around the $100 mark, so some of these, while they would be awesome, are getting a little pricey for me.

I like the Behringer HA4700 and I think it's the one for me, with a few caveats...

I'm trying to work out a scenario where this will work in my setup. I do all monitoring from a Mackie 1402-VLZ Pro mixer. The main XLR outputs go to TRS lines fed into my monitors. I could use the 1/4" main outputs of the board to go into the amp, but there doesn't appear to be anyway to individually control the different outputs on the board. (correct me if I'm wrong). So, if I wanted to turn up the signal to the headphone amp, I'd also be turning up my monitors. Solutions to this problem would be to turn down my monitor volumes on the monitors themselves (which would get really old really quick...volume knobs on the back of each). Or, if there is a box I could run in between the board and the monitors that acts as an on/off switch that I could press, without degrading the signal. Anyone know of such a product?

The next option would be to run the output of the board through the headphone amp, and back out to the monitors. But there doesn't seem to be any way to control the output of the Behringer. So again, to turn down the monitors I would have to turn down the entire mix. Is there some sort of monitor mute or master out volume control function on the HA4700 that I'm not aware of?

My last idea would be to run out of an AUX send. I could use the AUX send 1 on my board into the headphone amp, and just determine the master mix by turning up the appropiate AUX knobs on the board. My only problem here is that the AUX sends on the board are mono. This isn't a huge deal, but stereo would be nice.

If anyone has any other suggestions on setup or solutions to the problems above, please let me know. Once I've got the setup of all of it laid out I'll go ahead and make my purchase.

Thanks everyone for all your help!

-Matt
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I used to do it this way when I had a 1402 VLZ. Run the headphone amp out from the 3/4 alt outputs. Then you can switch from monitors to headphones, by simply selecting mains or 3/4 from the channel that your outs from your (soundcard?) are fed into. Now switching to the phones mutes the monitors. This works unless you want to have both the monitors and ohones going at the same time. If you need that go with the aux send.
 
Mattman84 said:
I'm trying to work out a scenario where this will work in my setup. I do all monitoring from a Mackie 1402-VLZ Pro mixer. The main XLR outputs go to TRS lines fed into my monitors. I could use the 1/4" main outputs of the board to go into the amp, but there doesn't appear to be anyway to individually control the different outputs on the board. (correct me if I'm wrong). So, if I wanted to turn up the signal to the headphone amp, I'd also be turning up my monitors.
-Matt
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I also use the HA4700, and it does a teady, reliable job. I have no complaints.
In relation to your monitoring puzzle, I can offer you what I do as something you can try.

I go from the control room outputs on the desk straight into the HA4700. From there I go to my monitors. This means that the signal to the monitors and the headphones is controlled by the control room knob. The HA4700 has a master volume and individual headphone controls, so you can get a degree of 'personalisation' there. The HA4700 has a 'master' output which is not affected by these controls. I have a mute switch between the HA4700 and the monitors if I need to just operate via headphones.
 
gecko zzed said:
I have a mute switch between the HA4700 and the monitors if I need to just operate via headphones.
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Can you tell me about the mute switch? That would be my best solution, if one can be had for pretty cheap. I would of course like for it to not color the sound at all and not add any recognizable noise.
 
You shouldn't need a mute switch. There are a few different ways to do this on a 1402. I used to have a 1402 but now use a soundcraft SX board, the one thing I miss are all the routing options on the master section of the 1402.

If you will not ever need to have the phones and monitors running at the same time, running the monitors off the mains (1/2) and the headphone amp off the alt (3/4), and switching back and forth, as I posted above, is the simplest means of doing this. In a one room situation, I can't really see a need to have both at the same time, especially if your audio interface also has a headphone out.

or,

run the monitors off the mains, and the headphone amp off the control room outs. from here you have a lot of different scenarios. You'll just have to figure out what works best for you. A lot depends on what else you are running into the board, and what other sources you need to monitor. I'm assuming you use a DAW, and that your DAW output goes to a stereo channel (13/14). With that channel set to output to the mains (unmuted) it feeds the mains. And, if "main mix" is selected on the control room matrix, the headphone amp. The control room fader attenuates or increases the gain going to the headphone amp if you need it without affecting the level to your monitors. (note: I'm assuming that the control room fader is after the mains faders in the signal path, but I can't remember exactly) So now your phones and monitors are working at same time and you have volume control from the board for each.
Now what if you want to "mute" the monitors and just use the headphones? (Note: just turning the mains down will also turn down the send to the control room - if my assumption is correct) "Mute" channel 13/14 (output to 3/4) and switch the input on the control room matrix to 3/4, and be sure that the "send to main" button isn't depressed. NOw you have phones and no monitors.

there are few different possiblities even still, get to understand the routing options on your mixer and you'll be able to handle a lot of situations. My "studio" is in my rehersal space and I used to control the PA Mains volume (Main outs), PA monitors volume (aux sends) studio monitor volume (control room out), and headphone amp (Alt 3/4 out) with a 1402. Granted i screwed up a few times and sent stuff the wrong way :eek:
 
and another thing, since I just realized it.

using the Alt 3/4 out makes the most sense for a headphone amp cause there is no volume control, and assures the same settings basically everytime. The control on the amp is enough. So, in continuing our examples: With the HP amp coming from the 3/4 buss, the monitors coming out of the mains. To hear the mix in the phones, you have to "mute" the channel (13/14) (sends it to the ALT 3/4 buss). To hear this also in your mains (monitors) with the ALT 3/4 source selected in the control room matrix, push in "assign to main mix", which sends the 3/4 buss to the main buss. If you need just the monitors, just unmute 13/14.

Also, I liked having my monitors running out of the control room outs simply because it was just one fader. Making a quick adjustment to the mains faders can sometimes end up with either the left or right up just a hair more than the other. So, I think the cleanest signal path (with a fader) is to "Mute" the channel your daw outputs into, select only ALT 3/4 in the control room source and out the control room outs. Just another thing to think about.

so, get an amp, some phones, and some cables, and your good to go.
 
Mattman84 said:
Can you tell me about the mute switch? That would be my best solution, if one can be had for pretty cheap. I would of course like for it to not color the sound at all and not add any recognizable noise.
Click to expand...

The mute switch is a very simple audio switch that I bought from Tandy. It is one of those AV switches that you get to flick from dvd to video or whatever. I plug headphone amp output into it, and one of its outputs goes to the monitors. The other output goes to another system that I can check mixes with, but which is mainly off. It adds nothing to the recorded signal because it is after the recording path.

I find it handy because I do most of my recording where my machine is, hence the need for speakers off, headphones on.

There are many ways of organising monitoring signal paths, and I note the reference to main outs, alt3/4 outs and so on. These are all fine. However, I reserve all my mixer outputs for feeds into the soundcard. My mains L and R, and subs 1 to 4 all go to the sound card, and I use direct outs for the other two channels in the card.

All my monitoring is done via the control room out. Doing this is one way I successfully monitor what's on the system and avoid feedback loops and other complications. This means that all monitoring goes through the HA4700 as well, which in turn means I hear what the performer is hearing. If the performer wants 'more me' I use an aux out to feed extra signal of whatever is required into his or her headphone channel.

The disadvantage of this configuration (I never said it was perfect) is that any PFL or soloing feeds through to the HA4700 as well. However, I get round this by sorting out levels and stuff beforehand.
 
Thanks James and Gecko for the extensive replies. They're greatly appreciated. I've figured out why my head would not grasp how to make this work.

I'm currently away for the weekend...it's my grandfather's 80th birthday so I'm in Georgia instead of Tennessee where my stuff is...so I didn't have direct access to it to look at it.

When you were talking about the 3/4 outputs, I seriously thought you were talking about channels 3 and 4...and I was thinking "that doesn't really make any sense".

I just went to Mackie's site and took a look at their photos...and I never even knew (believe it or not) about the 3/4 output on the back, or the control room outs. Whenever I felt around back there they just felt like inserts for the stereo pairs, like in channels 1-6.

Anyway...now that I feel sufficiently ignorant...I finally see the logic in all these suggestions. I will probably do the 3/4 out to the amp, and maybe try the control out to the monitors (Mackie recommends doing that on all of their possible-setup-schematics).

Let me go ahead and give you signal flow so you'll know what's up.

I start with a source, say a mic or bass, going into one of the first 6 channels of the 1402. I have an 8 channel snake of balanced cables...I use the first 6 of those on the inserts from those 6 1402 channels. They're pushed in halfway, so that it is used as a direct out from the board, without being affected by EQ, faders, etc. Only the trim affects it.

These 6 outs go into the front of my ST-Audio C-Port 2000 interface. It has 8 1/4" inputs on the front. I plug those 6 channels into channels 3-8 on the interface (I'll explain why in a second). The interface connects to its matched soundcard in my computer. The computer takes all of its sound and sends it back out to the rack unit.

There are 8 1/4" outputs on the back of the interface that act as outs for the 8 on the front. However, 1 & 2 are used as a stereo out from the computer. I take the remaining two lines from my snake, and go from the out of 1 & 2 on the back of the interface to the stereo pair 13/14 on the 1402.

So now I've got my computer's output on channel 13/14. The main XLR outs go straight into my monitors. So, the master volume and channel 13/14 fader are used in conjunction to control my monitoring level.

I like the Behringer because now, let's say I have a vocalist who wants "MoreMe", and let's say I have her mic plugged into the channel 1 preamp on the 1402. This outs to the interface into channel 3. Now I should be able to run a single 1/4" out of the back of the interface, into the aux in on the front of the headphone amp, and mix more of her in. And I can do this for up to 4 sources. Am I correct in assuming this? Am I correct in assuming that you've even bothered to read this far?

Thanks again for the help...and let me throw one last question at you.

It seems that some people don't like monitoring through a mixer, claiming that the mixer colors the monitored sound, giving an inaccurate perception of the mix. They say it's best to just go straight from the interface into the monitors. Is this true?
 
Mattman84 said:
I like the Behringer because now, let's say I have a vocalist who wants "MoreMe", and let's say I have her mic plugged into the channel 1 preamp on the 1402. This outs to the interface into channel 3. Now I should be able to run a single 1/4" out of the back of the interface, into the aux in on the front of the headphone amp, and mix more of her in. And I can do this for up to 4 sources.
Click to expand...

yep exactly right. switch it to 2-channel mode and the pan knob becomes the mix. you could also use an aux send. whatever works and is flexable in your setup. I use the same Behringer 4 channel amp you are looking into. It's fine, some of the headphone outs on the front are quirky, have to hold your mouth right while you jiggle the cord to make it work, but there are outs on the back too on mine, so I can usually find one that works. I like the outs on the back, less clutter in front (the back of my rack is insane though! :eek: ) I've tracked a Punk band and a Metal band and it's loud enough. The tone knob is pretty usuless - it's either mud or icepick. If I used it everyday I probably would have wanted something better by now though. Usually one or 2 pairs work for what I'm doing and I run one from the board and one from the interface, 2 totally differnt mixes.

Mattman84 said:
It seems that some people don't like monitoring through a mixer, claiming that the mixer colors the monitored sound, giving an inaccurate perception of the mix. They say it's best to just go straight from the interface into the monitors. Is this true?
Click to expand...

A shorter signal path is always better, but the convience and flexability of having a Master Fader on the board for the return from the DAW is a good thing. The best thing is to try it both ways and see if you can hear a difference. If I'm running directly out of my interface (MOTU 828 MKII) I'm still using the volume pot on the 828 itself to attenuate the signal (or the software fader) so I'm still using a fader to control the levels, and I'm stuck with the quality of that fader. Running the out at unity gain from the soundcard into the mixer and using the mixer fader seems just a good. (actually better I like the fader more so than the little knobs on the 828)

By using the insert outs directly into your soundcard, you are using the shortest signal path. (bypassing the EQ, channel fader, and master section) Defintly the way to go, unless you need the mixer to buss something together or want the EQ.
 
Yeah I don't even need the rack...probably just sell it or something.

I'm awaiting a response from the seller for more details on the condition of the unit, and what exactly that snake is comprised of. If it's all good them I'm gonna jump on it.
 
Gilliland said:
I'm leaning toward this one: http://www.rolls.com/new/ra53b.html Street price is $90 to $100 (mail order).
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And I did indeed buy the Rolls RA53B. It's perfect for my needs. Clean, plenty of power, deals with phones of various impedance without strife, and has lots of flexibility. Inputs can be XLR, RCA, Right and Left quarter-inch, or stereo quarter-inch. Each of the five channels has both a quarter-inch TRS output and also a mini-plug output, so you can use pretty much any phones with them. And both are active at once, so you can plug in up to ten pairs if you need to. Three of the channels can take an override input that lets them carry a signal other than the main one. Pretty versatile for $95.

Did I mention that it's clean? S/N is excellent. When there's no signal on it, it is silent.
 
Gilliland said:
And I did indeed buy the Rolls RA53B. It's perfect for my needs. Clean, plenty of power, deals with phones of various impedance without strife.....
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And now I'm afraid I have to take back that recommendation. It does indeed deal with phones of various impedance - until you actually connect five of them at once, and then it goes into oscillation and severe distortion. So I wound up having to return it. Haven't decided yet what to try next, but the Rolls didn't live up to its promise.
 
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