Having an Objective View of Your Abilities

  • Thread starter Thread starter Supercreep
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traumaa said:
I would like to record music like this. Not exactly like him obviously. But the same style.
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Hi. I listened to Owl City for a bit, and I can tell you that if you want to make music in the same style (this could mean a number of things so I'll just assume you want the same sort of sound), then you only need to record your voice. I didn't hear any 'real' instruments in there. So you'd need a mic, a laptop and some sequencing software like Logic.
You can achieve a lot using what I use, which is the bare necessities: a laptop (MacBook Pro in my case), recording/multitracking/sequencing software (Logic Pro in my case, does it all, gotta love it) and an audio interface (Edirol FA-66 in my case) to record from the mic or instruments. You can use all of this to record any instruments you have.
If you read up on recording on the internet and get advice from other people you will run into a whole pile of advice going from preparing your room for recording to mic positioning to preamping, and so on. But although there is a lot to say for all of these things I find that a lot of people go way overboard. That's also kind of what this thread is about.
Sure, if you want to make something that sounds "professional" (whatever that means) it'll set you back a couple thousand bucks and more. But judging by your question you don't want to do that, you want to get started.
So I would say this: hook your mic up to that audio interface, open up your multitrack software, position your mic in front of your guitar amp (not too close, not too far, check your levels) and start playing. Once you're happy with the recording, take your mic and sing something on the guitar part you just played.
There. You've just recorded your first multitrack song. It probably won't sound like much so you'll have to go into relative volume and EQing. Adding subtle effects like delay and reverb might make your voice sit better next to the guitar. If you want to add more layers do that first, before adding effects. Make sure your recording is what you want, not too loud, not too soft, no mistakes and not too much differences in volume throughout.
Now, to sound exactly like Owl City you would first create all the software instrument tracks. These are essentially software synthesizers so there's no need to record anything. You might want to hook up a MIDI keyboard to your audio interface to "play" the synthesizer. For this kind of stuff I used to use Reason, a sequencing software. Nowadays I use Logic Pro which is the best 500 euros I've ever spent on any software, ever.
One can go on and on about this. My bottom line advice for you is: get the bare necessities listed above and just dive in, and keep google handy. You don't need new advice on forums to get the results you pointed at, it's all there and I hope I gave you a nudge in the right direction.
I am now ready to be corrected and/or flamed by the professionals :cool:
 
Fascinating, but

Let's try to keep this thread somewhat on topic.
 
Supercreep said:
Let's try to keep this thread somewhat on topic.
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If this is directed at my post, I sincerely apologize if you saw it as too off-topic. It wasn't on purpose, I was just trying to help someone who clearly just started out (like me), seemed stuck and got no response (which, frankly, sucks). That said, I think I fail to see what the topic of the thread is exactly, then. Am I supposed to continue the discussion about Beethoven? That's also slightly off-topic, I find, even though it's an interesting point.
I'll try this again, because I do think it's really rich subject matter.
Personally I think the title of your thread contains a contradiction, namely the words "objective" and "your (own)". There's no such thing. In fact, in music there is simply nothing meaningful to be said about objectivity other than arguments against objectivity. The thing that comes closest to objectivity in music is consensus, which is really just aligned subjectivity, which is still diametrically opposed to objectivity. To make matters worse this aligned subjectivity is probably the product of marketing more than anything else in this day and age.

Even so, Gecko raised a good point; something I recently bumped into myself in the mixing clinic: "I painstakingly made this therefore it sounds good to me". Eigen kind, schoon kind, we say in Dutch (my child, beautiful child). I found myself discussing this issue with my wife the other day, a direct consequence of hanging around these fora. I asked her, suppose you draw something you really love, and you hang it on the wall and for a week every time you see it you feel really proud, then you invite some art-loving friends over and when they happen to see the drawing they ask why you put it on the wall; the lines are hesitant, the forms don't make sense, the shading is dubious at best, and so on. "Objectivity" would have just shattered my self-confidence. Is that good? Is it good that I will either stop drawing altogether, or spend a considerable amount of time trying to please consensus without being happy about one of my drawings for a long time to come? When am I being dishonest with myself, before or after?

You state (correctly imo) "work on identifying deficiencies in your technique and approach before spending lots of money". To be fair that's kind of what I was trying to say in my post: explore, just start with the bare necessities, get to know yourself as a musician and integrate the comments of others into how you perceive yourself as an artist. Adjust, adapt if you want and if you think it will make you more happy with the results. Find the limits of your creative expression with respect to your gear and then go out and buy the stuff you want to give more room to your creativity. The difference is that you're talking about people who think they're all that and I was responding to someone who was just asking where to start. And although "where to start" is definitely off-topic, I think the post I was responding to is a crucial element in the discussion, namely intention. If someone intends to sound like something and then doesn't, at least you have some kind of a standard for telling them whether they're deceiving themselves or not.
 
Singlespeak, your thoughts on this matter are valid and welcome.

When someone is learning a new skill, I like to think there are some general stages of development:

1) Unconsciously Incompetent
2) Consciously Incompetent
3) Competent

One has to start at the beginning. I'm just trying to facilitate kick starting the critical process.

As to the frission between objectivity and self, it is something one has to tackle in order to progress. Self-confidence is useless without something to be confident in - it is only self-delusion otherwise.

What should be encouraged as a rational alternative to unwarranted confidence is self-discipline. Confidence should follow naturally from competence. Desire doesn't equate to capability; one has to actually be capable.

Not everybody can do the things they want to do, regardless of how much they want to, or how much potential they think they have.
 
philbagg said:
He (Beethoven) was a composer. Not a recording artist, engineer, or producer.
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Evelyn Glennie is a recording and live-playing artist. You should watch her resource videos before being adamant a pair of working ears is necessary for working with sound, let alone hearing it. It will open your eyes, as well as your ears.

I do not believe there is any such thing as a permanent 'tin ear' or a 'tone deaf person'. I have reason to believe full comprehension of sound and the ability to creatively manipulate it, is less dependant on physical hearing than to a developed perception. Furthermore, the ear is only one of many instruments that can respond to sound... as sound waves are, primarily, vibrations.

Dr. V
 
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Dr. Varney said:
... I do not believe there is any such thing as a permanent 'tin ear' or a 'tone deaf person'...
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I agree. Most people don't realize that everyone has perfect pitch (the ability to recognize pitch without a reference) but it just wasn't "turned on" when we were young.
 
Well, if there were such a thing as 'tone deafness' then all the people who claim to be tone deaf wouldn't be able to appreciate music... and that's simply not the case.

Having said that, after hearing what spews out of some open car windows as they race down my road, it does makes me wonder... :laughings:

Dr. V
 
Supercreep said:
When someone is learning a new skill, I like to think there are some general stages of development:

1) Unconsciously Incompetent
2) Consciously Incompetent
3) Competent
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This categorisation suggests a logical extension of the first two categories, so that within "competent" you get:
Consciously competent; and
Unconsciously competent.

We can apply these categories to typical forum questions . . .

1) Unconsciously incompetent
"My friends and I are in a band and we want to record our material, but we know nothing about recording. What do we need to sound professional?"

2) Consciously incompetent
"I've been mixing my band's recordings, but the mixes sound noisy and thin. I haven't got the hang of it yet. How can I improve them?"

3) Consciously competent
"I've just done a new mix of the band, which sounds pretty good to my ears. Any comments?"

4) Unconsciously competent
"There are no magic settings in plug-ins. Why don't you just use your ears?"

The level of competence that someone has reached dictates the nature of help you give. These, unsurprisingly, can also be fitted into four corresponding categories:

1) High directive, low support ("read the manual", "do a google search")
2) High directive, high support ("check your signal path. You are getting too much noise, but your musical ideas are sound")
3 Low directive, high support ("it's a good mix. You might like to try less reverb")
4 Low directive, low support ("thanks for your help")

The importance of self-awareness is that it helps to prevent "category jumping", i.e. someone might think they are more competent than they are perceived to be by others: "Don't tell me what to do, I know what I am doing" may be an appropriate (though uncivil) response from someone who is unconsciously competent (specially if they are being patronised), but is more usually heard from someone who is unconsciously incompetent, but hasn't realised this yet, i.e. they don't know what they don't know.
 
I think I stayed stuck between the consciously incompetent and competent stages. And when I listen to those recordings today, I can't believe that I thought that I was the bomb :eek: . Wow.

At least I had the brains to get out before I incurred further humiliation and god knows how much money down the drain...
 
I'm pretty seriously competent for all the good it does me.
I have to work 6 nights a week just to get to 40k a year. That's poverty right there really.
Better than working in a convenience store though.

But my point is that having fun and joy with your music is far more important than how good you are.
We've all know great players who were bitter and unhappy with music.
That's worthless ..... what's the point?

I think the only competency you need is whatever level it takes to make you happy.
 
Lt. Bob said:
But my point is that having fun and joy with your music is far more important than how good you are.
We've all know great players who were bitter and unhappy with music.
That's worthless ..... what's the point?

I think the only competency you need is whatever level it takes to make you happy.
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Being aware of your limitations and being accepting of them is a way of staving off frustration and discontent, and I tend to agree that enjoying music is more important than how competent you are.

But . . . that idea is also disturbing. For example, you could apply it to another profession . . . how would it work if you were a surgeon, for example?
 
gecko zzed said:
Being aware of your limitations and being accepting of them is a way of staving off frustration and discontent, and I tend to agree that enjoying music is more important than how competent you are.

But . . . that idea is also disturbing. For example, you could apply it to another profession . . . how would it work if you were a surgeon, for example?
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Well, you wouldn't, if you were a surgeon. It's a different thing there. You could hate being a surgeon and be totally unhappy. But still be highly competent. When I'm lying on that bed in theatre, the surgeon's personal happiness and job satisfaction is of no consequence or interest to me. Competence matters far more than whether you enjoy it. Music is different.
 
gecko zzed said:
Being aware of your limitations and being accepting of them is a way of staving off frustration and discontent, and I tend to agree that enjoying music is more important than how competent you are.

But . . . that idea is also disturbing. For example, you could apply it to another profession . . . how would it work if you were a surgeon, for example?
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well .... that's a valid point however, the two situations aren't quite the same.
No ones' life depends on anyone being a great musician.

But I see your point and let me say that at 59 years old, I still work hard at improving my skills even though I currently play at a high level.
But I'm not as good as I could be and I want to be the best I can possibly be before I die. Not sure why but at least I have a goal. :)

So I'm sympathetic with the urge to improve ........ I'm just saying that I don't really like the judgemental thing in music too much. Everyone plays at whatever level they're at and they should be able to enjoy that even if they've got a ways to go.
 
Lt. Bob said:
Everyone plays at whatever level they're at and they should be able to enjoy that even if they've got a ways to go.
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Glasshoppper, the journey to the mountain's peak is long and filled with sights, smells and sounds. If we live only for the moment we reach the peak, the joys of the path might be lost to us forever. If we lose sight of the peak, we may nestle upon the nearest green plateux, never to venture out of it's comfort-area. But it depends on our goal. If the wonderful view from the top really justifies the coldness of the peak then we will continue on. If your destination is a warmer, green plateux, then it is not a bad place to live. It's all about being able to enjoy each stage for the fine qualities of each and knowing what you ultimately want.

Dr. Del-a-Varna
 
Lt. Bob said:
But I see your point and let me say that at 59 years old, I still work hard at improving my skills even though I currently play at a high level.
But I'm not as good as I could be and I want to be the best I can possibly be before I die. Not sure why but at least I have a goal.
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Our situations (and philosophy) are not dissimilar. I've been playing music since I was fifteen, and while reasonably adept, there are so many others with greater skill. I am continuously in awe of some of the people who come into record, specially those who are young but so gifted.

I suspect that I am not going to get any better (at playing), and I am ok with that. I still record myself, and it is what it is. If some people enjoy the results, I'm gratified. If they don't, I'm not all that worried.

On the other hand, I am continuously improving my recording techniques, and this excites me, because in this area I haven't yet reached my limitations. I can hear technical and musical flaws in earlier recordings, and this pleases me . . . because I can hear them.
 
Dr. Varney said:
Glasshoppper, the journey to the mountain's peak is long and filled with sights, smells and sounds. If we live only for the moment we reach the peak, the joys of the path might be lost to us forever. If we lose sight of the peak, we may nestle upon the nearest green plateux, never to venture out of it's comfort-area. But it depends on our goal. If the wonderful view from the top really justifies the coldness of the peak then we will continue on. If your destination is a warmer, green plateux, then it is not a bad place to live. It's all about being able to enjoy each stage for the fine qualities of each and knowing what you ultimately want.

Dr. Del-a-Varna
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I can't believe I actually wrote that shit! :mad:

Dr. V
 
I can !
























Seriously though, it's laden with sense, couched in terms of mystical claptrap ! :D
 
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