Have you mix your song? Now destroy it with your limiter!!! ^_^

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@cidvertigo

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Hi all,

I have finished to mix a "true" Heavy metal song and the mix for me is nice (Tight, well balanced and with decent dynamics).

In the mastering section i have the original file with -14 average Rms. The mastering chain is composed by a compressor and a limiter. Because i want to rise up the overall volume to -10 average Rms, similar to a Rms of a commercial Cd that i like.

The problem is that when i increase the overall RMS i get heavy distortion on the high frequencies (expecially the distorted guitars, now they are sparkle guitars ). How can i decrease only the high frequency range intensity to avoid this problem?
 
You cant.
This is what happens when you want these insane volumes.
Its a trade off quality for volume.
85% of people go for volume.
 
-10 isn't insane for a metal song. I've done metal-ish stuff with very little compression at -11. Check out PMC #12 that's running right now, there are good mixes that are running -11 or 12, and I don't think for the most part people are mastering their mixes at this point. If you listen to the better mixes on this thread, that might give you an idea of where your mix might need some fixes.

http://www.homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=170465

I'd go back to your mix and see if something needs compression, like drums perhaps, before you master. Also check the EQ before compressing or limiting the master bus, see if something is out of whack. Again, easier to fix in the mix.

Finally when you go to master, try compression, then limiting, with only a little bit of each :)
 
mshilarious said:
-10 isn't insane for a metal song. I've done metal-ish stuff with very little compression at -11. Check out PMC #12 that's running right now, there are good mixes that are running -11 or 12, and I don't think for the most part people are mastering their mixes at this point. If you listen to the better mixes on this thread, that might give you an idea of where your mix might need some fixes.

http://www.homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=170465

I'd go back to your mix and see if something needs compression, like drums perhaps, before you master. Also check the EQ before compressing or limiting the master bus, see if something is out of whack. Again, easier to fix in the mix.

Finally when you go to master, try compression, then limiting, with only a little bit of each :)
Click to expand...


Who you trying to kid, i know what -10 rms sounds like. Squashed shit.
 
Anybody ever read this:

http://www.prorec.com/prorec/articles.nsf/articles/8A133F52D0FD71AB86256C2E005DAF1C

-9.5 dB is obviously problematic for Rush's style, because their loudest transient is the kick, and it got badly distorted as shown. Rush has a lot of space in their music, so it can't easily be taken away.

In a metal tune, you have loud heavily distorted guitars. You also have a kick drum mixed with more highs and less lows. The combination means that the music has inherently less dynamic range than something like Rush. Can -10dB be thus achieved without bad distortion? It depends on the tracking and the mix. Going from -14 to -10 in one giant leap probably ain't the way to do it.
 
While I am no fan of compression whatsoever, and the stuff I ususally work with typically sounds best in the -14 to -16 dBRMS, and sounds like absolute crap of you press it to -10, mshilarious is right that for many metal songs, -10RMS may not be unreasonable.

Remember that RMS just referrs to an "average" volume level, as averaged over time. If you have a very dense metal mix with a relentless Wall Of Gibson Distortion coming from doubled guitars and a drummer who beats his instruments as hard and as much as he beats his instrument, you are going to have a natural RMS that is much higher than with other music. This is because the wavefrom never has a chance to approach zero a and drag the "average" down. In other words, the dynamic range is already squashed and elevated.

You try pushing Bonnie Rait unplugged to -10dBRMS and it will sound absolutely awful. Try the same with Nickelback live and you may not have to tough a thing to acheive -10dBRMS. Whether or not that sounds like crap is up to your personal tases, but it won't be because the recording is over-squashed.

G.
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
You try pushing Bonnie Rait unplugged to -10dBRMS and it will sound absolutely awful.
Click to expand...

I wish Bonnie Raitt would squish me to -10dB RMS :o :o
 
I dig metal - I'm a former long-haired crazy metal dude myself.

But I have yet to hear a recording at -10dBRMS that's worth a crap. I tend to crank out my fair share of them here (under pressure from the client) and I just don't get the fascination... It's self-destruction of otherwise perfectly decent material.

I would assume these are the same people that want to have 6 4x12's on each side of the stage while only one cabinet is actually plugged in...
 
I see what you mean but you can still get the sound you are after without it being so damn loud.
I still think its pushing it but im a bid like an old fart wrt levels.
 
I'm actually starting to get used to this whole "heavily limited" sound.

In fact, I recently pulled out some of Red Hot Chili Peppers more recent albums ... Californication, By the Way, etc.

And I tell ya ... after repeated listens, I honestly just don't think that music these days is limited enough. I want more hard limiting in my music. If it's not bold and loud, it just ain't gonna' cut it for me anymore.

What I am going to do is purchase the hardware version of the L-2, and hook it up to my home stereo system. Then I'm thinking about hooking another one up to the I-POD. I figure it will be an expensive investment, but well worth it.
 
chessrock said:
I'm actually starting to get used to this whole "heavily limited" sound.

In fact, I recently pulled out some of Red Hot Chili Peppers more recent albums ... Californication, By the Way, etc.

And I tell ya ... after repeated listens, I honestly just don't think that music these days is limited enough. I want more hard limiting in my music. If it's not bold and loud, it just ain't gonna' cut it for me anymore.

What I am going to do is purchase the hardware version of the L-2, and hook it up to my home stereo system. Then I'm thinking about hooking another one up to the I-POD. I figure it will be an expensive investment, but well worth it.
Click to expand...

You read my mind!
 
Massive Master said:
I would assume these are the same people that want to have 6 4x12's on each side of the stage while only one cabinet is actually plugged in...
Click to expand...

Well back in the day, you had time between the beat to snap your neck back for the next headbang. These days the kick comes so fast it's all you can do get in the mosh pit and twitch :eek:
 
Massive Master said:
I dig metal - I'm a former long-haired crazy metal dude myself.

But I have yet to hear a recording at -10dBRMS that's worth a crap. I tend to crank out my fair share of them here (under pressure from the client) and I just don't get the fascination... It's self-destruction of otherwise perfectly decent material.

I would assume these are the same people that want to have 6 4x12's on each side of the stage while only one cabinet is actually plugged in...
Click to expand...


I suppose a few people will start listening now as they should.
Massive knows his shit quite well.
Id prefer the sound of -15 turned up as opposed to turning down -10 RMS.

Come on guys its places/forums such as this where we need to get the word out there.
We cant go around saying -10rms is acceptable, 2years time well be saying -4 is acceptable.
 
Douglas Boyle said:
I suppose a few people will start listening now as they should.
Massive knows his shit quite well.
Id prefer the sound of -15 turned up as opposed to turning down -10 RMS.

Come on guys its places/forums such as this where we need to get the word out there.
We cant go around saying -10rms is acceptable, 2years time well be saying -4 is acceptable.
Click to expand...

I feel a contest coming on . . .

http://www.homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=174777
 
Douglas Boyle said:
Come on guys its places/forums such as this where we need to get the word out there.
We cant go around saying -10rms is acceptable, 2years time well be saying -4 is acceptable.
Click to expand...
If you check my post history, Doug, you'll see that I argue vehemently against the recent squash-to-square-wave fad and that I think that anything that approaches single-digit RMSs just plain sounds worse than something more dynamic. I'm with that 100%

Recently I have had some metal work come my way. This doesn't happen too often as my planet orbits around a different musical star systm. But this stuff came in with a mix filled with Les Pauls with infinite sustain and massive distortion and double kicks and all that metallic headbanger stuff. The mix was so full of sound at a constant level the the mixdowns easily came in at mixdown RMS levels that met or exceded what I can get for RMS levels after mastering on most of the rock/jazz/blues stuff I usually do. Not because of the heat of the tracking or the mix, but because of the high noise level of the content itself. When a guitar doesn't shut the f__ up because the band wants it to sustain until the sun goes nova, the envelope already is a freakin square wave before you even touch it.

When you have something that mixes down to -14.2 dBRMS because the sound never stops, it's not that hard to master it up to -11 or -10.

The probelm is really rooted in one of taste; I personally find that a dense metallic mix already sounds like crap at -14 and sounds even worse at -10. That stuff has Excedrin written all over it by my tastes (and no, it's not age; my metal stage lasted all of about 18 months when I was a teen before I discovered other genres.)

But there are plenty of legitimate people who like that wall of sound that metal provides. When they hear me say that I work to get my mixes up to -16dBRMS they think I'm the cookoo; but that's because they've never worked with more dynamic content.

There are three kinds of opinions on this board correlating to the three categories of member; the headbanger, the hip hopster, and the guy who does everything else. If which of these areas someone with talking about was established early on in each thread, the answers could be tailored properly and the arguments would be kept to a minimum. :)

G.
 
i absolutely de-f*#k^@g stroyed a mix for a client the other day.
it's kinda liberating......

here's the mix that you see no need to have professionally mastered, just as loud as white pony. (deftones)

enjoy :)

(the best limiter i have for the record, is the L1, but hey, at least i paid for it)

it was the first time i could really tell i had squished a mix.
 
I have tried to compress the high frequencies with a multiband limiter and now is good for me. No distortion in the high end.
 
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