Guitarist trying to get into MIDI and recording

[Hades]

Hello All,

Confused newbie here...I've been playing piano and guitar for years and have all the regular ol' gear for that. I'm looking to join the 21st century and expand into MIDI and recording. I've read so much stuff about MIDI that I think I come up with two questions for every one I get answered. So, I thought I'd stop in here and get straightened out.

Like I said, I have all the standard "live gear" for playing guitar, but I want to add in a MIDI keyboard controller and a Korg Triton Rack. I want to create a rig that is expandable to accept new MIDI controllers/instruments later (another keyboard, percussion pad, guitar-to-MIDI controller, etc), and get it ready to do some recording too. I'd like to make my own backing tracks, record some full songs, whatever. I'd like the whole rig to be a live "instrument" in itself too, so if some buddies come over, one can play the guitar while I play piano, and the other guy, say, a set of MIDI drums, for example...I don't want a studio-only rig where you can only play with one thing at a time.

I drew up a little diagram I made showing how I THINK the MIDI stuff works to help keep my mind right. I've got all the guitar stuff in the diagram except the mixer (I do have rack effects; I'll use the time based stuff, EQ, comp, etc. as outboard effects on the mixer), and none of the MIDI stuff; like I said, I just drew that to help visualize what I was reading, and try and figure it out. I'm not sure it's right at all--that's where y'all come in. Here's my thinking so far:

Picture removed and revised in reply below.

Sorry it's a little fuzzy...It seems Photobucket must do some compression when you upload or something. Anyway, some questions:

1) First of all, is that the correct signal path for a single MIDI controller/instrument (in this case the 88 key controller)?

2) Is using the audio out on the Triton Rack into the mixer the proper way to get the audio from the Triton to the mixer? Or does the audio come from the computer/MIDI sequencer? If the latter, what audio interface/hardware is necessary to get good audio outs from the computer?

3) What do I need to add in more MIDI controllers/instruments? Do you use a MIDI interface with multiple MIDI ins and outs, use same identical signal path for each new controller, and just daisy chain interfaces to expand? Or does one use a multiple in/1 out merger and a 1 in/multiple thru box and just stick them on the in and out sides, respectively, of the interface (ie: the multi in/1 out merger in front of the interface's MIDI in, and the 1 in/multi thru box after the interface's MIDI out)?

** Combining #2 and #3, I'm thinking that if you add more MIDI controllers, the audio out must come from the computer/sequencer and not the Triton...? Again, if that's the case, what audio interface/hardware is necessary to get good audio outs from the computer?

4) I know most folks record on their computers now, so since I'll need a computer/MIDI sequencer for this project anyway, what extra software and gear would I need to add that capability? Assuming a single new-ish machine can handle the load anyway...?

Sorry for the questions, but thanks for the help in advance. I hope I've done enough "RTFM" and show enough understanding to not catch too much flak, even though that's the source of a lot of my confusion!

Thanks again!

ETA: Oh, I almost forgot...I do know that I'll have to get a different power amp and monitors (or just powered monitors anyway) than I have diagrammed, so no need to cover that ground again.

 

[altitude909]

..


1) First of all, is that the correct signal path for a single MIDI controller/instrument (in this case the 88 key controller)?

No. Midi out of the controller into midi in of the interface, midi out of the interface into the triton. Midi out of the interface to the controller serves no purpose and will probably result in a loop. Going into the USB interface, you will be able to record the midi while you are playing data and play it back to the triton

2) Is using the audio out on the Triton Rack into the mixer the proper way to get the audio from the Triton to the mixer? Or does the audio come from the computer/MIDI sequencer? If the latter, what audio interface/hardware is necessary to get good audio outs from the computer?

Audio out to the mixer if you dont have a proper audio interface. If you did have a dedicated audio interface for the computer, you could ditch the mixer and just have everything connected to the interface which also serves as a mixer. Otherwise, the audio out of your computer should go into the "tape in" or a channel on your mixer that will not feed into the mix that will go into the computer to record (i.e. only feed the monitor mix, you will get a feedback loop otherwise)

3) What do I need to add in more MIDI controllers/instruments? Do you use a MIDI interface with multiple MIDI ins and outs, use same identical signal path for each new controller, and just daisy chain interfaces to expand? Or does one use a multiple in/1 out merger and a 1 in/multiple thru box and just stick them on the in and out sides, respectively, of the interface (ie: the multi in/1 out merger in front of the interface's MIDI in, and the 1 in/multi thru box after the interface's MIDI out)?

Really depends on your needs. You can definitely chain a couple of sound generators if your midi stream is not too busy but if you plan on sending clock, a big sequence of chords, a lead, and a drum track, you should probably look at a multi channel interface. Softsynths do not suffer from this so those will be a function of how much muscle your computer has.

** Combining #2 and #3, I'm thinking that if you add more MIDI controllers, the audio out must come from the computer/sequencer and not the Triton...? Again, if that's the case, what audio interface/hardware is necessary to get good audio outs from the computer?

The audio out from the computer is a separate output. The audio from the triton will always come out of the triton unless you record it to the computer. There are tons of threads about interfaces so I wont get into that now.

4) I know most folks record on their computers now, so since I'll need a computer/MIDI sequencer for this project anyway, what extra software and gear would I need to add that capability? Assuming a single new-ish machine can handle the load anyway...?

I would start with Reaper, free to try cheap to buy and will do everything you need.

 

[Hades]

Outstanding, thank you Sir!

Before I ask anything else, check my updated signal flow diagram and let me know if I'm pickin' up what you're layin' down.

As you can see, I added in a second MIDI controller. Assuming I have a multi-in MIDI interface, that's basically how it would work, right? Multiple MIDI controllers feeding the Triton?

I also added in the computer audio interface briefly touched upon. Do I have that routed correctly as well, both sending audio to the mixer and speakers for play back, as well as receiving audio from the mixer for recording?

I do know I could completely ditch the mixer, but I'm old and old fashioned and I like knobs and switches and all that. I've played around with friends' mixing software, and while there's nothing wrong with it, I just like a real mixer better. I'm also the sort of guy who, even if there was one box that did the job of three boxes, I'd still rather have the three boxes, hehe. I basically would like to keep the computer just for the MIDI sequencing, recording and playback duties. Honestly, I wouldn't even have it for that if I had all the money in the world and could afford to buy all the hardware to do those jobs too.

Anyway, thanks again for the help. It just seemed like the more I read, the less a couple things made sense...And looking around, I haven't really seen any wiring diagrams showing how it's all put together, so you've been a big help.

 

[altitude909]

Yup, looks much better now. If you like a mixer (i do also), you can look at some digital mixers which also serve as audio interfaces. I run an old Tascam TMD1000 which combined with a PCI TDIF card gives me 10 in 8 out to my computer that I can patch and configure in dozens of ways depending on what I am doing. I love that flexiblilty

 

[Hades]

Great, thanks!

What you mentioned was something I was going to ask...Is that what these USB and firewire mixers do? Feed the audio in/out directly to/from the computer, bypassing the need for an audio interface? They don't really explain the USB function in the product descriptions...But if so, you're right: that's pretty cool and useful, and definitely the way to go...Then at least you can do multi-track recording on your computer with "real" hardware, which I definitely dig.

 

[altitude909]

It all depends on the device so you have to read/ask questions/etc for each. With USB, some will only send the stereo mix to the comp others will have direct outs (sends for each channel). Generally, the more channels you have the more likely it is that it will be a firewire device however. The important thing is how many inputs you have, you really only need 1 stereo output for normal duties

http://www.zzounds.com/a--2676837/prodsearch?q=firwire+Mixer&button=&form=search

I cant personally vouch for any of those but I do hear very good things about the Yamaha N8 (http://www.zzounds.com/a--2676837/item--YAMN8) and it is very well integrated into Cubase AI so it also doubles as a quasi control surface

 

[Hades]

Alright, been doing some more reading and need another signal path sanity check...

Again, sorry about the fuzziness...Darn Photobucket re-sizes uploads and screws up the image resolution. I think it's still clear enough though, but if not, let me know and I can explain.

Anyway, as you can see, I threw in some additional MIDI controllers and synths for theoretical expansion, and I added in a multi-channel audio interface for multi-track mixing and recording. So my questions:

1) Is this correct to allow for expansion of MIDI controllers and synths? Is that what the MIDI merger and thru units are for, which take multiple inputs and merge them into one, or take a single output and expand it into several inputs? Or do we really need to buy several MIDI interfaces and daisy chain them together?

2) You can program each MIDI channel to use different controllers and synths, so Controller 1 uses the Triton, Controller 2 uses the Motif, etc., right?

3) Also, in conjunction with a multi-channel I/O audio interface, the above will allow me to mix the MIDI track playback on the mixer right along with recorded audio tracks played back from the computer, just as if the MIDI tracks were recorded audio too, yes?

4) Is this correct for multi-track mixing and recording to and from the computer, just like a "real" studio? And I assume you could, for example, use two 8 in/out audio interfaces simultaneously to accommodate 16 tracks, or three 8s for 24, etc.?

I also apologize for the interface questions here in the MIDI forum; I just figured this was the logical thread to ask in since it's all related, and I didn't want to spam the board with several questions all over.

Anyhow, I think I'm getting closer to understanding how the signal paths work for both live sound and recording/mixing. So if my flow chart above checks out, or after I get some corrective feedback anyway, I think I'll be about ready to start researching individual components. Thanks in advance for your help again.

 

[altitude909]

1) Is this correct to allow for expansion of MIDI controllers and synths? Is that what the MIDI merger and thru units are for, which take multiple inputs and merge them into one, or take a single output and expand it into several inputs? Or do we really need to buy several MIDI interfaces and daisy chain them together?

Again, it depends. If you only have one midi in to your comp, then a merger makes sense but if you have a multi channel midi interface, then you wont need it, just use the inputs on that. Most controllers today have a USB interface on them anyway so you might not even need to use any in ports on your midi interface but YMMV, some drivers for midi over USB are really bad so you may chose to run them over midi anyway. I have an Akai MPD16 drum pad and the USB drivers are total crap so I just plug it into my midi interface which has solid drivers instead

2) You can program each MIDI channel to use different controllers and synths, so Controller 1 uses the Triton, Controller 2 uses the Motif, etc., right?

Sure can. You can even split a keyboard to have one side play one device and the other side play a different device. You just need to have the control and target device set up to send and receive on the same midi channel (there are 16). Most devices are configured out of the box as "omni" meaning they will accept midi data on any channel so you have to change the "basic channel" (the midi channel the device will respond to) manually.

3) Also, in conjunction with a multi-channel I/O audio interface, the above will allow me to mix the MIDI track playback on the mixer right along with recorded audio tracks played back from the computer, just as if the MIDI tracks were recorded audio too, yes?

Yes! That's the great thing about a modern DAW and that's exactly how I work. I run Cubase 4 with all hardware so I pretty much use it as a midi sequencer first to lay down all the instrument parts one at a time and then add the more "organic" parts that cannot be sequenced (vocals, acoustic stuff etc).

4) Is this correct for multi-track mixing and recording to and from the computer, just like a "real" studio? And I assume you could, for example, use two 8 in/out audio interfaces simultaneously to accommodate 16 tracks, or three 8s for 24, etc.?

yes. Depending on your setup of course. Some people just do everything itb (in the box) so they are running mixer software instead of a physical mixer. This allows great expansion without the confines of hardware, just add another interface for more channels. There are also expansion options for many interfaces also, anything with ADAT inputs will allow you to add 8 channels by attaching an ADAT input device. I am sure there is a limit on how many aggregate devices you can have in one system so it may be better to get one interface with as many channels that you need over multiple, chained interfaces but again, just like everything in this business, YMMV.

Anyhow, I think I'm getting closer to understanding how the signal paths work for both live sound and recording/mixing. So if my flow chart above checks out, or after I get some corrective feedback anyway, I think I'll be about ready to start researching individual components. Thanks in advance for your help again.

It is good that you are doing your homework, it saves a lot of head aches down the road if you have a reasonably clear picture of your goal in your head and just need to fill in the blanks with hardware...

 

[Hades]

Again, it depends. If you only have one midi in to your comp, then a merger makes sense but if you have a multi channel midi interface, then you wont need it, just use the inputs on that.

Alright, been doing some reading again...I've been looking at multi-channel MIDI interfaces to hopefully do away with needing a MIDI merger and thru box.

To back up a little though, I've been looking hard at the MOTU 2408 MKII/III PCI audio interface, and connecting a Behringer ADA8000 AD/DA converter or two to it over ADAT, to get me up to 16-24 channels. The only problem is, the MOTU doesn't have MIDI I/O, so I have to look at other solutions for MIDI. And since this is all rack gear and will get stuck with other rack gear, it makes sense (to me anyway) to stick with that and try to find a rack MIDI interface to keep things clean and organized.

Problem with that is, most of the MIDI interfaces on the market right now seem to be either combo audio interfaces, and/or are non-rack units. The combo units are more than I'd prefer to spend on a simple MIDI interface (not to mention I don't need the audio capabilities if I have the MOTU 2408), and while having a non-rack interface is okay if I have to go that route, I'd just assume stick with the rack form factor if possible.

A browse on MF or zZounds doesn't help me much, so I turned to a Google search and the used market, and found the following:

• MOTU MIDI Timepiece (serial and USB)
• Steinberg MIDEX 8 (USB)
• Emagic AMT8 (USB)
• Emagic Unitor 8 (USB)

Do you have any experience or knowledge of these units? They're all 8 I/O interfaces, which is great since I can see myself having a couple keyboards, a 13 key foot pedal, a guitar controller, percussion pads, maybe a wind controller someday since I play clarinet, yada yada...Hence my desire for expandability; that's 6 controllers right there as is. Anyhow, all appear to do virtually the same thing as far as MIDI goes (I could be wrong though; correct me if I am please!)...So it comes down to computer compatibility and function I suspect.

I'm assuming that you can't go wrong with the MOTU unit being that it's MOTU, so I'd take it as the safe bet, yes? The same might be said of the Steinberg since that's a "name brand" too, right? And, any opinions on the Emagic stuff? Any other ideas for interfaces? Any other recommendations, etc., etc.?

Since all I want it for is multi-channel MIDI I/O, it doesn't have to be so-called top of the line gear, nor do I want to spend out the backside on it either...It just has to do MIDI, so all (inexpensive-ish) options are welcome.

Thanks again.

 

[darrin_h2000]

First...find one of these.

 

[Hades]

Haha, no thanks.

 

[darrin_h2000]

I have a damn good keyboard controller but thats just nice to have if you are a guitarist.

 

[dintymoore]

I have a MOTU MIDI Timepiece (the serial version) that I'm not using and would like to sell for $40 + shipping. It's a great unit and MOTU is known to be a solid company. I have the manual, I bought it new and it's never been out of my studio.

I also have a KMX MIDI Central, that was the king of MIDI patch bays, it's the 4 rack model (jacks on the front) that I've never seen on eBay. That thing is something else - I recall it's got something like 31 MIDI jacks on the front. I'm looking to sell that too but I'd have to check on the price 'cause that's a very cool, rare unit.

 

[altitude909]

To back up a little though, I've been looking hard at the MOTU 2408 MKII/III PCI audio interface, and connecting a Behringer ADA8000 AD/DA converter or two to it over ADAT, to get me up to 16-24 channels. The only problem is, the MOTU doesn't have MIDI I/O, so I have to look at other solutions for MIDI. And since this is all rack gear and will get stuck with other rack gear, it makes sense (to me anyway) to stick with that and try to find a rack MIDI interface to keep things clean and organized.

Excellent choice. That is my dream interface. TDIF also so you can plug this into it:

...

A browse on MF or zZounds doesn't help me much, so I turned to a Google search and the used market, and found the following:

• MOTU MIDI Timepiece (serial and USB)
• Steinberg MIDEX 8 (USB)
• Emagic AMT8 (USB)
• Emagic Unitor 8 (USB)

Do you have any experience or knowledge of these units? They're all 8 I/O interfaces, which is great since I can see myself having a couple keyboards, a 13 key foot pedal, a guitar controller, percussion pads, maybe a wind controller someday since I play clarinet, yada yada...Hence my desire for expandability; that's 6 controllers right there as is. Anyhow, all appear to do virtually the same thing as far as MIDI goes (I could be wrong though; correct me if I am please!)...So it comes down to computer compatibility and function I suspect.

I was running 2 Midex8s and have owned the motu midiexpress (parallel version). The midex units work great with cubase and the motu was very good also but the parallel interface was cumbersome to use. Big problem with both was the fact that they only work well with xp32.

Which brings me to the main point: future proofing. My midexs are no longer supported (like the emagic units on PC, mac they still work) so eventually (or already) they will be paper weights. Right now, I am dumping my midexs in favor of boutique german interfaces that I have to build myself. They are class compliant (no drivers needed) and their performance is unmatched but if I have to buy something now, it would be a MOTU midiexpress XT or the timepiece. The timepiece adds a lot of functionality that you may or may not need so the XT will be fine for most stuff.

Since all I want it for is multi-channel MIDI I/O, it doesn't have to be so-called top of the line gear, nor do I want to spend out the backside on it either...It just has to do MIDI, so all (inexpensive-ish) options are welcome.

Thanks again.

This is what sux. You would think that if you spend top dollar, you get top performance but that is not the case at all. My midex interfaces retailed at $479 when the were still selling and my DIY usb interfaces DESTROY them timing, latency, and jitter wise and I pay ~$40 total for each one (they are 5x5). It is kind of a crap shoot with USB midi, your comp and software all play a part so it is pretty much a try this, try that thing.