Guitar timing is always off

[Halion]

I'm the kind of bedroom recording artist that does everything himself and who we all love.

Mostly, when I write a song, I start off with a guitar concept of a couple of chords with a rythm. I pop on some headphone, set the clicktrack, setup the mic(s) and start recording. All's fine up to here. Then I do some precussion or drums with samples. I listen back to it, and whadaya know, the guitar timing is off.

That pretty much happens to me all the time. I've never had 1 full take that was actually timed right. And to think that I'm a bassplayer, who's most important task is control the timing!

Anyone else have this problem? I guess I could start with the drums/perc. and then do the guitars, maybe that'll help.

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

Latency problem, maybe?

 

[producerkid]

Ditto to Blue Bear, indeed a latency issue. I had this problem once. It's caused by buffer settings being off, either to big, or not enough. What software are you using? Try running the ASIO or DirectX (whichever you use) driver wizards which will automaticly set up proper buffer settings for you. Again tell us which software you're using.

the kid

 

[HangDawg]

Don't run any plugins on the master buss either. The same thing has happened to me, and that was the cause.

 

[Halion]

18.1 ms @ 44.1. I'm running Cubase SX 1.01 with 800samples/buffer.

Yes, there's stuff on the main out (L2, Magneto, sometimes EQ).

I don't think it's a latency problem, because I used to record at 96kzh, with 5.3 ms .

Also, my timing is not always too late, it's sometimes too early aswell, can't blame that on latency if I wanted to hehehe.

It's more a general statement of me finding it hard to play tightly on just a clicktrack (there's no groove to get into!) and I wondered if other's have this aswell

 

[reshp1]

It's more a general statement of me finding it hard to play tightly on just a clicktrack (there's no groove to get into!) and I wondered if other's have this aswell

You really should set up a custom click track instead of the standard "ONE two three four" What you want to do is really set up a rough drum track without the fills and record guitar to that. Put in a few crash cymbal hits in at the transitional bars to help keep track of where you are in the song too. It makes things SOOO much easier than that damn "wood block" metrodome.

 

[Farview]

Being a bass player, YOU are the one that should be grooving. Try using an 1/8th note click.

The best thing to do is put down the scratch guitar track-> then do the drums -> then redo the guitar track. This will work much better.

 

[LemonTree]

what fairview Said.

I don't even bother with a click. I start in fruity loops with the gutar on and just build the whole drum sequence, constantly playing guitar along with each drum part I have till I know it's right all the way through. Then I export the drums seperately. Import them into cubase and put a scratch guitar down, then the bass, then I prolly redo the guitar or add another ....you get the idea

18 milliseconds is a lifetime, what soundcard is that?

 

[Rokket]

drum track first...

I've talked to a lot of drummers, some really good, some not so good, and they all agree that it's tough to lay drum tracks to an already laid guitar part, because even playing with a click track, the guitars lag. Try laying the drum parts first....

 

[cellardweller]

My drummer, we'll call him "Zoom", can NEVER put down tracks to a pre-recorded guitar track

never

 

[Rokket]

My drummer, we'll call him "Zoom", can NEVER put down tracks to a pre-recorded guitar track

never

Zoom? what ever floats the boat! It's true, though. I tried it once, having played drums for a bit (I suck at it, let's get that out front! I am a guitarist/bassist, and it's different muscles that I can't get to cooperate). I laid down what I thought were pretty good guitar tracks (doubled), and then the bass tracks. Came back the next day to do the drums (on a drum machine, no less), and played with it for two hours before I ended up dumping the guitar tracks and redoing from scratch; starting with the drums. It might be latency, as was suggested, but I think it's more along the lines of what I have always experienced. It's just too damn hard to get good timing without the drum tracks going first. And, I used a click track, trying to be cute....

 

[Farview]

The band always follows the drums. If you don't put down the drums first, the band is following nothing and the drums are just floating in space.
That would be the opposite of a groove.

 

[Halion]

I know that as a bassplayer I should be the one laying down the groove, but I don't want to record the bass before the guitars. It's either drums first or guitars first.

That custom clicktrack thing might be a good idea

 

[nickjc]

I agree with laying down the drums first.

I get a basic 4 bar drum beat at the speed I want first, then just loop that, and then I lay down sketch guitar and vocals at the same time - audio quality doesn't matter so long as you can hear it. then I re-do everything properly, but at least then you have the basic structure and rhythm of the song down first, y'know?

 

[Sonixx]

if you track another guitar after the kit... is it off-time?

 

[Be Loveless]

It does indeed help to do drums first. However, My duo has no drummer and we do OK just guitar and bass and my overdubs work out fine. sometimes there are subtle time lags or accelerations but I just look out for and then remain aware of them. If I do add percussion or a drum machine part I keep it simple at first and and other fills later. Or you can do what we usually do. We tap our feet. HARD. It really does help. Good luck.

 

[Halion]

if you track another guitar after the kit... is it off-time?

well...less

 

[volltreffer]

I find it most convenient to record scratch drums via drum machine first. Then lay down scratch bass and guitar tracks, followed by scratch vocals. The our drummer does the reals drums. Often we end up in using all scratch tracks (except the drum machine) in the end...

aXel

 

[MonkeyShock]

I used to have the same problem. I never really learned time sigs, so I bought a keyboard-with a rhythm machine, which I use to find the tempo I like. Then I just record that for my click track. Works just fine...no hassles, easy tempo changes, plus of course, the keyboard. I think anyone can find something in their price range.

 

[Burden of Proof]

Scratch Tracks and the Bedroom Recordist

I think scratch tracks are where it's at. When you don't have a band there to keep you on rhythm, the click track generally is not enough. Most will say lay drums down first, but I'm not a drummer and I have a song concept long before I have a drum concept. What I do is lay a scratch guitar (that 'couple chord rhythm' mentioned earlier) over the metronome. I turn the metronome up fairly loud, so I can hear it over my scratch guitar. Then I lay the bass in (I know, backasswards, but it fits my composing style) listening carefully to my loud ass metronome. I do this because as a guitarist, I generally don't even write bass or drums until I have a guitar 'groove' to play off of. Once the bass is in and solid (even if just a rough scratch, bass is obviously important to have on-time), then I'll either add rudimentary drums or re-record that rhythm guitar with bass and metronome. Once you've got either bass+click or bass+drums then that should be enough 'groove' to get the rest of your takes in. It can just be hard to conceptualize the bass or drum grooves first if you're a guitarist.
Long story short (too late) scratch tracks are your friends. You're usually going to have several takes to get the track the way you want it anyway, so it's not much wasted time/effort to lay anything/everything down as a scratch first for reference.
Especially if you're using home recording as a composition tool.

yet another 2¢

-The Burden-