Guitar Recording Difficulty

[Polymorphia]

So, I've been trying to experiment as much as I can with the equipment I have, and I honestly can't manage to get a decent sound. Either my guitars are too grainy or I'm having phasing issues (I managed to get a non-grainy sound by placing three mics closer together; bad idea in hindsight, but I was desperate). I've tried reversing phase and all that jazz. When I have the slightest bit of overdrive on, I get tons of grain. Nothing seems to work.

Here's what I've been using:

Mics:
2 SM58s, but most of the time I just use one.
1 Apex415 (I've been experimenting lately with using the 58 closer to the speaker and the 415 three or four feet away)

Audio Interface:
Most of the time a Lexicon Omega, but just today got an Akai Professional EIE. Had the same problems.

Guitar gear:
Godin Solidac that has seen better days, but isn't in horrible condition
Fender Hot Rod Deville 212 (note: a likely contributor to my problems; when cranked, sounds like a medium gain overdrive, unlike other Devilles I've heard; perhaps I wasn't listening closely to those other Devilles, however)
Lovepedal Kanji Eternity Black Overdrive

I also don't know if I'm using very good guitar or mic cables.

 

[witzendoz]

If you can't get a good guitar sound from a single SM58 then the problem is not with the mic or recording gear. I often record guitars with a single SM57 (they sound the same as a sm58 on guitar amps really), my preferred method is a SM57 and a Ribbon placed alongside it.

I think the problem is with the sound of the guitar and amp. Don't forget that you hear the sound a good few feet form the amp, try sticking you head where the mic is placed and have a listen there, does it still sound good? The position in front of the speaker does change the sound quite a lot, if you want a bright sound place the mic near the centre of the speaker, if you want to bring out the lows place it near the edge of the speaker, and you have all the positions in between these two positions.

Alan

 

[ido1957]

Most of the time...what you record is what goes into the computer.
So your guitar setup needs a change, or your mic is broken.
Or you're clippping.

 

[Polymorphia]

Thanks guys. I think the overdrive I was using is too bright for my guitar, and the tubes of my Deville perhaps too dirty. I tried another overdrive and had a little more luck, but I still might try a friend's amp to see if that makes any difference.

 

[Wish]

You need much less gain/distortion/overdrive than you think...dial it back.

 

[Robus]

Not sure what you mean by grainy. That 2x12 is loud. Are you really cranking it? If so then I hope you are running cables from another room. There is no way you could monitor on headphones with that monster in the same room. You need to be able to monitor what you are recording to make you are getting a good tone. If you are relying on the pedal for your overdrive, it probably won't sound the same as real amp distortion, but I could be wrong.

 

[mjbphotos]

You need much less gain/distortion/overdrive than you think...dial it back.

^^^^THIS^^^^

get the sound you like from the amp first - hold your head close to it to take the room out of the equation. Then dial back the gain/distortion a bit and try recording that.
How are you poistioning the mic(s) in relation to the speakers in the Deville? I'd try just one, first, and move from the edge of the cone (at a slight angle, 2-3 inches away) towards the center of the speaker an inch at a time.

 

[Polymorphia]

You need much less gain/distortion/overdrive than you think...dial it back.

Problem is, it's extremely grainy when the overdrive I'm using (a low gain one at that) is on at all, even with the drive turned all the way down. Clean, it's still a little dirty, yet there's much less sustain than I want.

Not sure what you mean by grainy. That 2x12 is loud. Are you really cranking it? If so then I hope you are running cables from another room. There is no way you could monitor on headphones with that monster in the same room. You need to be able to monitor what you are recording to make you are getting a good tone. If you are relying on the pedal for your overdrive, it probably won't sound the same as real amp distortion, but I could be wrong.

It's a lot of crackling (not peaking kind of crackling mind you), yet without the sustain and warmth of a good overdrive and amp.

I am cranking it (6 at the most, but usually 3 or 4, which I've heard is where Deville's start to squish), and I'm in the same room. I keep earplugs in under my headphones while I'm recording it. Now that you mention it, I do have an idea for how I could record in another room, but, previously, I was just recording short samples of my parts and listening back.

I'm not particularly fond of the Deville's natural overdrive, but I should probably try it out anyway and see if that fixes things.

 

[RAMI]

Not to contradict what others have said, this is just my opinion. But I don't agree with dialing back the distortion (especially without hearing the OP's track) automatically. I agree that if you're layering tracks, then you should dial back the distortion. But for one track, or even a doubled track, get the sound you want and record it. Just my opinion based on my experience, which is limited.

 

[Polymorphia]

^^^^THIS^^^^

get the sound you like from the amp first - hold your head close to it to take the room out of the equation. Then dial back the gain/distortion a bit and try recording that.
How are you poistioning the mic(s) in relation to the speakers in the Deville? I'd try just one, first, and move from the edge of the cone (at a slight angle, 2-3 inches away) towards the center of the speaker an inch at a time.

The 58 I've tried right up to the speaker to 3-4 inches away. Mostly towards the center, but sometimes more towards the edge. I'll try that set up, though.

 

[Greg_L]

Not to contradict what others have said, this is just my opinion. But I don't agree with dialing back the distortion (especially without hearing the OP's track) automatically. I agree that if you're layering tracks, then you should dial back the distortion. But for one track, or even a doubled track, get the sound you want and record it. Just my opinion based on my experience, which is limited.

This. ^^^^

 

[Polymorphia]

Another factor might be that my pickups are pretty hot.

 

[RFR]

At the risk of being "that"guy, are you any good as a player? I mean do/can you get a good guitar tone to begin with?

How much recording of your guitar have you done?
Is it possible that the tones you capture are just not the ones you hear in your head?

Without knowing anything about you, as to skill level, experience, expertise, etc. Its hard to offer advice and help.
People are talking about things of a technical nature much farther on down the recording chain.
That chain starts with you.
So, with no disrespect intended, how are you as a player? ?

It all starts with you.

 

[Greg_L]

At the risk of being "that"guy, are you any good as a player? I mean do/can you get a good guitar tone to begin with?

How much recording of your guitar have you done?
Is it possible that the tones you capture are just not the ones you hear in your head?

Without knowing anything about you, as to skill level, experience, expertise, etc. Its hard to offer advice and help.
People are talking about things of a technical nature much farther on down the recording chain.
That chain starts with you.
So, with no disrespect intended, how are you as a player? ?

It all starts with you.

Those are fair questions. Another you could ask is that even the right guitar and/or amp for whatever you're trying to do?

Also, if you don't know what you're doing, using three mics for a guitar track greatly increases the odds of getting a shitty recording. See if you can get a good track with just one mic.

 

[theDICKENS]

I'd just like to say that before you go sticking your ear next to a cranked 2x12, start with just getting your ear at speaker height from a few feet(metres?)away. You'd be surprised at how different your amp sounds

 

[Polymorphia]

At the risk of being "that"guy, are you any good as a player? I mean do/can you get a good guitar tone to begin with?

How much recording of your guitar have you done?
Is it possible that the tones you capture are just not the ones you hear in your head?

Without knowing anything about you, as to skill level, experience, expertise, etc. Its hard to offer advice and help.
People are talking about things of a technical nature much farther on down the recording chain.
That chain starts with you.
So, with no disrespect intended, how are you as a player? ?

It all starts with you.

At the risk of being that other guy, pretty good. The guitar parts are pretty involved, but I can play them precisely and articulate them as well as I want them articulated. I've messed around with the fingering and playing closer to the neck and bridge, playing it softer, louder, using different picks. The problem isn't my playing, as I've adjusted that as much as I have my gear to get it to sound right. Rest assured, while I am no perfect player, I know what I'm doing on the fretboard.

I mix much better than I record, because I spent a long time using meh amp modelers and keyboard drums (not even programmed), attempting to make them sound good. As far as each instrument fitting in well, I can do that. But mic placement is newer to me. I've been experimenting with it all summer, and that's about all the experience I've had.

But my main skill is as a writer/arranger, and the I wrote the guitar parts to fit together like a puzzle. And they do. No matter how bad the guitars sound themselves, they sound great in context of the recording. The problem comes on parts where just one is playing.

And it may be true that I'm just not getting the sound I'm looking for, either out of my guitar, amp, overdrive, or mics. I've found a competent tone, but I may have to go the extra mile and get the equipment known for getting the sound I want.

Those are fair questions. Another you could ask is that even the right guitar and/or amp for whatever you're trying to do?

Also, if you don't know what you're doing, using three mics for a guitar track greatly increases the odds of getting a shitty recording. See if you can get a good track with just one mic.

I'm fairly certain I'm not using the right guitar/amp for the project. Which means it's time to sell some unneeded gear and get a new guitar/amp.

I only did a three mic set up once, wherein I got the best tone, but had phasing issues. Other times, it was just one or two mics. I had better luck with two.

 

[RFR]

Thanks for the info. And again, no one wants to second guess your abilities, or insult you.

What kind of music are you doing?

You have any sound clips to share?

As far as a sound or "tone", if you have a good sound to begin with, one sm 57 can capture that with a ease.

Multiple guitar parts tend to work well with using different guitars and amps.

Some clips of what you currently have and maybe some clips of what you consider an ideal sound might help.

Also, try the amp in another location and have a helper play around with mic placement while you play and listen.

 

[Polymorphia]

Well, the problem was most certainly my guitar tone/mic placement. I've managed to get something workable by messing around with it some more, although, ideally, I'd have a better rig. None of my equipment is terrible, but it doesn't work together like it should. Thank you all for the suggestions. I put many of them to use, and they helped a good bit.

I'd just like to say that before you go sticking your ear next to a cranked 2x12, start with just getting your ear at speaker height from a few feet(metres?)away. You'd be surprised at how different your amp sounds

I made sure to turn it down when I put my ear up to it, and tried to make adjustments with amp squish in mind.

Thanks for the info. And again, no one wants to second guess your abilities, or insult you.

It's all good. As Greg_L said, they're fair questions.

What kind of music are you doing?

Very atmospheric punk. Post-punk, in theory, but not really containing a lot of the post-punk trademarks. Sometimes it feels more like atmospheric black metal, post-rock, or Sonic Youth.

You have any sound clips to share?

Currently recording those. I could upload what I have, but I haven't rerecorded the guitar parts, and the problem with the ones I currently have is just mics placed too close together. No mystery there.

As far as a sound or "tone", if you have a good sound to begin with, one sm 57 can capture that with a ease.

If you have a really good tone, that is. But anything less than that seems to fall short. Too, I think I'm just not crazy about the sound of a lone 57/58. It can't be perfect at capturing tones; otherwise, nobody would use condensers.

Some clips of what you currently have and maybe some clips of what you consider an ideal sound might help.

While I'm rerecording, I'll just post something close to my ideal:

Perhaps slightly less gain.

 

[RFR]

Cool.
Well you'll figure it all out. Just going through all the trial and error right now.
The good news is once sorted, you'll be able to dial it in again in a heartbeat.

 

[Greg_L]

I think I'm just not crazy about the sound of a lone 57/58. It can't be perfect at capturing tones; otherwise, nobody would use condensers.

That's a load of crap. The 57 IS perfect for capturing guitar. It's tough, it can handle very high SPLs, and it's cardioid. Some might not like the character of a 57, and that's fine, but that doesn't mean a condenser will do it better. You don't have to like it, but there's a reason it's probably the most popular cab mic of all time. IMO if you're able to use a condenser on a cab, that might be part of your tone problem - you're not loud enough.