Guitar making tools: Which router?

[gcolbert]

I'm sorry Muttley, but you must be getting old and loosing your memory. Your post on building a custom LP makes the point quite clearly. Obviously, you have spent years building up your workbench and selecting the exact tools that you need to do the job right.

My point to the OP is that you have to get a lot of other things right before you worry about one single tool. You seem to have forgotten that.

Your benches are obviously solid and built to your specifications. It looks like you have a great clamping system integrated into it to hold your work securely. Your bench vices are very nice. About the best price you can find for these now days is $150 apiece (more than the cost of a router). And those wonderful clamps that you are using to hold the maple together go for about $50 apiece. You need three or four of these to do the job right. Then there is the question of how you joined the maple front to the mahogany back. I don't think that you just unclamped the pieces, slapped glue on and put a book on top of them while the glue set. How much have you invested just to be able to clamp the front and back of the body together? Are you telling us that you didn’t need to plain these surfaces before gluing them together (or did you just clamp them hard enough that they fit)?

The first tool that you show is a wonderful hand plain for jointing. It may have been a while since you priced one of these, but a good one is priced well over $200 sometimes over $400 (twice the price or a reasonable router).

Yeah, you have a nice workshop. That is one of the contributing factors to why you can do such good work. Don't try to tell some poor sap who is just starting out that he can do this on a folding card table and plunge router. He is just going to be disappointed and frustrated with his results (or is that your intent?).

 

[muttley600]

I'm sorry Muttley, but you must be getting old and loosing your memory. Your post on building a custom LP makes the point quite clearly. Obviously, you have spent years building up your workbench and selecting the exact tools that you need to do the job right.

Right, you asked for it so here goes...

First, remember that this thread is about which router to get to start out on guitar making.

Second, nobody has said that you need just a router althoughb I have built guitars without one and it is entirely possible.

Now onto what you are tell ME about what I DO AND why you could not be more wrong.....

My point to the OP is that you have to get a lot of other things right before you worry about one single tool. You seem to have forgotten that.

You point to the OP was that you cannot build a guitar without spending large amounts of money on benches, clamps, a jointer, a surface planer, buying huge lumber stock to mill to size. You do not need any of those things. When I apprenticed at Rolls Royce I spent the first year doing nothing but learning to make and use hand tools. I didn't touch a power tool for probably two years... A jointer and surface planer are for people who have never learned to sharpen and set a saw and a plane....

Your benches are obviously solid and built to your specifications.

My main bench is 25 feet of old kitchen cabinets topped with 3/4" play or MDF... Anyone can find or salvage something similar for free at the local tip

It looks like you have a great clamping system integrated into it to hold your work securely. Your bench vices are very nice. About the best price you can find for these now days is $150 apiece (more than the cost of a router).

I have two quick release vices cut into the bench. I got them both for less than £25 at a boot sale years ago. My other bench has and end vice which I built myself and several bench dogs which I also built myself. Cost £0...

And those wonderful clamps that you are using to hold the maple together go for about $50 apiece.

The clamps on the maple cap are sash cramps that I built myself. The end griops cost about £12 a pair. You can quite happily;y do the job with spread wedges and a few nails. If you knew anything about woodworking you would know this.. Cost £0

You need three or four of these to do the job right.

You can do it right without any clamps. If you cut plane the joint accurately and it is a perfect fit which it should be, a rub joint is all thats needed. Most violin and cello makers still do that as a matter of course. I clamp mine so I can move them and store them while I get on with other stuff.

Then there is the question of how you joined the maple front to the mahogany back.

The body and cap can be planed with a router and sled as described in the thread earlier. Have you read it?

I cut the bookmatch with a handsaw and shoot the joint with a no. 5 Jack plane. There is a picture of the process in the thread you mentioned. I own a jointer but I don't think I have used it in about two years because that is the last time I did any rough joinery work. You can happily cut a square edge for jointing with a router should you wish to. You DO NOT need a jointer.

You can glue the cap to the body with wedges or a go bar deck. Both £0...

I don't think that you just unclamped the pieces, slapped glue on and put a book on top of them while the glue set.

See above.... if you plane the joint right as described above you can use wedges and a weight quite happily...

How much have you invested just to be able to clamp the front and back of the body together?

The back is one piece no joint. If I wanted to I could join the back with a handsaw and a jack plane and four wedges. I can find those pretty cheap at a yard sale if I want to..

Are you telling us that you didn’t need to plain these surfaces before gluing them together (or did you just clamp them hard enough that they fit)?

See above...

The first tool that you show is a wonderful hand plain for jointing. It may have been a while since you priced one of these, but a good one is priced well over $200 sometimes over $400 (twice the price or a reasonable router).

That one new costs £85. You can find them on ebay, boot sales, second hand for loads less. I have dozens because I score them cheap when I see them. I also have box planes I have made for a few pounds that work just fine.

Yeah, you have a nice workshop. That is one of the contributing factors to why you can do such good work.

I have a nice workshop because it is my job and I have acquired a lot of tools over the years. Over half of them would be hand made or adapted. As has been said all along you do not need that many tools to start and if you think you do then you are a fool. You need whatever it takes to get the job done.

Don't try to tell some poor sap who is just starting out that he can do this on a folding card table and plunge router. He is just going to be disappointed and frustrated with his results (or is that your intent?).

I am telling you what I have said all along. It is entirely possible to build a guitar with a router and basic hand tools. You can add to the tool chest as funds and means allow. I have shown you examples of an instrument built entirely with 16th century tools that I fashioned. I have given you ample time to re-appraise the advice you seem to want to give, I have pointed out how you can happily achieve the tasks you say are impossible without expensive power tools for next to no money... I have years of experience doing this and that is the only difference between me and the OP.

I built my first guitar as a kid with a few tools from dads shed and A Portable workmate as a bench. Dont tell me what can and cannot be done with a little effort.

No either encourage and help people or go away... Your intent is to make the process elitist and discourage. That is not welcome.

 

[gcolbert]

My my, aren’t we getting to be a pretentious old git Muttley. And you can find a used router at a yard sale or on eBay for $5.00 if you are willing to look around.

I am basically starting from scratch tool wise. I have a dremel and and a hand drill. Hoping to make some jigs for the router.

Hey, don’t worry mate, all you need to build your new guitar is a pocket knife and some second hand socks. Look at the wonderful tenor viol that I built using just a stone axe and a sharpened piece of flint. Get serious dude. The first thing this guy needs is a good work bench. How expensive a proposition this is depends on his willingness to improvise vs. spend. I did not put a price tag on that – you did. If you don’t agree that a proper workspace is the first requirement you should consider spending more time on yours and less time giving out bad advice here.

The next thing that he needs is a way to do wood joints. Granted, we could expect him to spend years learning the fine use of using a block plain. That should keep him working on the project for a year or two, wasting tons of good wood trying to figure out how to get rid of the bow and gaps in the middle of his guitar, or he could buy a power tool and not have to learn the fine art of hand joining wood like the great and mighty Muttly does. Joiners and plainers can also be found at reasonable process on the second hand market.

You are also right about being able to find vices and clamps on the second hand market, but you did not say that you didn’t need them to do the job properly – and then you have the audacity to say that you can do this without clamps!! No wonder you recommend people keep the instruments you make in climate controlled environments. They will split and fall apart from humidity changes if you don’t get the joint properly glued and clamped. Yeah, let’s just drive some wedges into a block and see how that holds up.

There is a real dilemma when giving someone who is just starting out advice. You are right that the recommendations can be so overwhelmingly expensive that the effort gets quashed before it starts. The other side of this is that the results of weak advice can be so unsatisfactory that a person writes the whole effort off as a waste and beyond their skills and never tries again.

 

[muttley600]

My my, aren’t we getting to be a pretentious old git Muttley. And you can find a used router at a yard sale or on eBay for $5.00 if you are willing to look around.



Hey, don’t worry mate, all you need to build your new guitar is a pocket knife and some second hand socks. Look at the wonderful tenor viol that I built using just a stone axe and a sharpened piece of flint. Get serious dude. The first thing this guy needs is a good work bench. How expensive a proposition this is depends on his willingness to improvise vs. spend. I did not put a price tag on that – you did. If you don’t agree that a proper workspace is the first requirement you should consider spending more time on yours and less time giving out bad advice here.

The next thing that he needs is a way to do wood joints. Granted, we could expect him to spend years learning the fine use of using a block plain. That should keep him working on the project for a year or two, wasting tons of good wood trying to figure out how to get rid of the bow and gaps in the middle of his guitar, or he could buy a power tool and not have to learn the fine art of hand joining wood like the great and mighty Muttly does. Joiners and plainers can also be found at reasonable process on the second hand market.

You are also right about being able to find vices and clamps on the second hand market, but you did not say that you didn’t need them to do the job properly – and then you have the audacity to say that you can do this without clamps!! No wonder you recommend people keep the instruments you make in climate controlled environments. They will split and fall apart from humidity changes if you don’t get the joint properly glued and clamped. Yeah, let’s just drive some wedges into a block and see how that holds up.

There is a real dilemma when giving someone who is just starting out advice. You are right that the recommendations can be so overwhelmingly expensive that the effort gets quashed before it starts. The other side of this is that the results of weak advice can be so unsatisfactory that a person writes the whole effort off as a waste and beyond their skills and never tries again.

If you aint going to get on board and help some one on their journey then just piss off. Your contribution is as unwelcome as it is wrong.

You are welcome to post some examples of the guitars you have built? You are welcome to post some pictures and details of tools and jigs you have built to allow others to copy or share? You are very welcome to post more about the guitars falling apart from humidity shit you quote and specifically where I advise them to be kept in climate controlled environments.?

At no point has anyone said you can build a guitar with just a router. In fact just the contrary. What everyone EXCEPT you is saying is that you do not need the extensive list of tools you cite...

You are clueless and know little or nothing about tools, wood or guitars... Go away, you are wasting every bodies time.

 

[JCH]

There is a real dilemma when giving someone who is just starting out advice. You are right that the recommendations can be so overwhelmingly expensive that the effort gets quashed before it starts. The other side of this is that the results of weak advice can be so unsatisfactory that a person writes the whole effort off as a waste and beyond their skills and never tries again.

What gives you the right to advise? Standing on the sidelines screaming "workbench" makes you look like a bit of a tool yourself. I'll offer advice, but it comes from personal experience. You're only stating your own misconceived opinions.

Power tools are great. I've got some nice ones, and they make things easier to do, but if it weren't for my ability to use hand tools I wouldn't have the needed skills to use the power tools properly. Tools don't make me, I make tools. Furthermore, If all you have to offer is discouragement, You need to lay off. There are many out there who may never pick up a tool because they are convinced by your buffoonery that they can't do something just because you can't, or won't try.

Usually when someone tells me I won't be able to do something, or that it's difficult, it pushes me to succeed, but most are more easily put off. Don't be a wet blanket. There are people out there that actually want to enrich their lives, try something different, or like myself expand on skills they already possess. Maybe in your mind it's the attitude of a realist, but please don't let your lack of woodworking skill, and ambition dismay other's hopes.

 

[blaumph2cool]

Look Glen, giving warning advise about the pitfalls of woodworking is one thing. what you are doing is just trying to berate mutt. i am all for discussion and different points of view but you are not being helpful.

in addition to the advise from gracious folks like mutt, i am doing TONS of other research on building guitars and woodworking. i am not stepping into this lightly, even if i don't have the thousands to get set up right away.

My goal of this thread was to see what i could do with just starting out.

It is clear that instead of just disagreeing you began to personally attack mutt. If you are not going to be helpful than leave.

 

[Chili]

I have a workbench, but it is so loaded up with crap it's not usable. I used a folding table in my garage to do my lightweight projects. Including routing, drilling, sawing, sanding (hand and power), gluing, staining, etc. It worked fine.

For my next project, I want to get a drill press and a tabletop bandsaw, then I will need to dig out my workbench and use it.

 

[gcolbert]

I think that the Grand Wizzard, Mr. Muttley started this pissing match with his comment:

You can safely ignore most of what was posted above by gcolbert.

His feelings must have been hurt when the original poster responded positively to someone's suggestion other than his own impeccable opinion. While he may be a good luthier, it does not make him any less of an obnoxious ass.

The fact is that the first requirement for doing a guitar project is a good workspace. You can't do this on your mother's kitchen table.

The second fact is that you need tools to join wood properly and these joints are more critical to the finished product than what tools are used to carve the wood. I recommended the tools that are commonly used to do this in the current day and age. You can step back to 16th century technology and achieve the same result if it makes you feel more like a man I guess.

I stand by my recommendation that the first thing that the OP needs is a good work bench and that his second consideration needs to be tools to do wood joints with.

Glen

 

[JCH]

There lies the enigma. What came first... The workbench, or the craftsman

Glen, I don't know what you do, but I'm a Carpenter. The majority of the time I'm on jobsites where there are no work surfaces other than the floor, a folding table, or a couple or sawhorses with some plywood on top of them. I, in forty years of doing this have never let the lack of a proper work surface impair my ability to perform. I just don't have that luxury. This style of working has also forced me to think on my feet to come up with solutions to problems based on what I have in my pickup truck. I've worked on everything from government housing, to Royal Palaces. Not once has a workbench been my first consideration. I think because there is a large amount of useful information here in this thread, and that it is a good subject, You have been treated very politely. Hopefully those that are more intuitive won't pay much attention to you.

 

[gcolbert]

There lies the enigma. What came first... The workbench, or the craftsman

there are no work surfaces other than the floor, a folding table, or a couple or sawhorses with some plywood on top of them..

I can't imagine you showing up at a job site without either sawhorses or the braces to make one. If the OP were doing framing work my first recommendation would have been to buy a good hammer and either buy or learn how to make sawhorses, but making a guitar is not the same as framing a house.

 

[muttley600]

I think that the Grand Wizzard, Mr. Muttley started this pissing match with his comment:



His feelings must have been hurt when the original poster responded positively to someone's suggestion other than his own impeccable opinion. While he may be a good luthier, it does not make him any less of an obnoxious ass.

Right now we get to your real agenda.

Be honest what I said was this...

You can safely ignore most of what was posted above by gcolbert. It may have been well intentioned but it is wrong.

Since then you have gone on to start all the rubbishing and your true agenda shows through... Take it to the cave if you want to continue a pissing match. You have been told by others that you are wrong and before I mentioned it.

The fact is that the first requirement for doing a guitar project is a good workspace. You can't do this on your mother's kitchen table.

The second fact is that you need tools to join wood properly and these joints are more critical to the finished product than what tools are used to carve the wood. I recommended the tools that are commonly used to do this in the current day and age. You can step back to 16th century technology and achieve the same result if it makes you feel more like a man I guess.

I stand by my recommendation that the first thing that the OP needs is a good work bench and that his second consideration needs to be tools to do wood joints with.

Glen

More of the same rubbish. Nobody said you need just a router. Just that you dont need to list you advertise or your attitude.

I am out of here. Good luck with the project guys. If you want to know anything ask gcolbert. He has both the experience with cabinet work and post count and HR credibility to handle it.

Adios folks...

 

[JCH]

I can't imagine you showing up at a job site without either sawhorses or the braces to make one. If the OP were doing framing work my first recommendation would have been to buy a good hammer and either buy or learn how to make sawhorses, but making a guitar is not the same as framing a house.

It's cool Man, think what you may. I actually build things. I'm not afraid to fail while trying. I finish the project's that I start. I encourage people who would like to do the same. I'm willing to consider another's advice, and always want to expand my skills.

What have you made lately?

 

[gcolbert]

OK John, I've built 1 1/2 Les Pauls and one telecaster. I learned a lot about how not to do things and a lot of appreciation for guys who can get it right. The first LP made it clear that things were not going according to plan when it came time to join the neck to the body. I spent a day or two trying to 'fix' a bad situation with careful chisel work and wood filler before I realized just how bad the mess had gotten and migrated the whole thing to the garbage can. The second effort was a nice gold top clone that sounded OK, but the truss rod wasn't ever right and I ended up giving it to a neighbor who thought it was pretty and didn't really play anyway. The tele clone was a relative piece of cake after the first two failed attempts. Unfortunately, I shaped the neck to the Fender profile and nut width and I just didn't enjoy playing it when it was done. Could I do a better job next time? I think so, but I have since decided that it is just a lot easier to buy a new Les Paul and not screw with it.

That being said, I think I have a lot better idea of what problems and errors someone who is just starting out on this effort is facing - including what tools make it easier. I can assure you that having the work move around on a sloppy workbench will lead to crappy moulding and shaping, regardless of how good your power tools are. I will guarantee you that gluing a front to a back that are not plained is not a good idea. There aren't enough clamps to make a bad job work. Wood filler is not an answer. Also, a hand plain is not a very good tool to use if the work is not properly clamped and supported.

Using a straight bit in a router bench and the fence as a jointer does work (if you have one properly plained surface to square to). There are lots of ways to accomplish the identical tasks in woodworking and all of them can work.

A newbie at this should take advice from both those who are talented at it like Graham is as well as those who have attempted and not gotten good results. Muttley's discourteous disregard for the advice that I provided tells me that he does not share the same respect for learning from mistakes.

 

[muttley600]

OK John, I've built 1 1/2 Les Pauls and one telecaster. I learned a lot about how not to do things and a lot of appreciation for guys who can get it right. The first LP made it clear that things were not going according to plan when it came time to join the neck to the body. I spent a day or two trying to 'fix' a bad situation with careful chisel work and wood filler before I realized just how bad the mess had gotten and migrated the whole thing to the garbage can. The second effort was a nice gold top clone that sounded OK, but the truss rod wasn't ever right and I ended up giving it to a neighbor who thought it was pretty and didn't really play anyway. The tele clone was a relative piece of cake after the first two failed attempts. Unfortunately, I shaped the neck to the Fender profile and nut width and I just didn't enjoy playing it when it was done. Could I do a better job next time? I think so, but I have since decided that it is just a lot easier to buy a new Les Paul and not screw with it.

That being said, I think I have a lot better idea of what problems and errors someone who is just starting out on this effort is facing - including what tools make it easier. I can assure you that having the work move around on a sloppy workbench will lead to crappy moulding and shaping, regardless of how good your power tools are. I will guarantee you that gluing a front to a back that are not plained is not a good idea. There aren't enough clamps to make a bad job work. Wood filler is not an answer. Also, a hand plain is not a very good tool to use if the work is not properly clamped and supported.

Using a straight bit in a router bench and the fence as a jointer does work (if you have one properly plained surface to square to). There are lots of ways to accomplish the identical tasks in woodworking and all of them can work.

A newbie at this should take advice from both those who are talented at it like Graham is as well as those who have attempted and not gotten good results. Muttley's discourteous disregard for the advice that I provided tells me that he does not share the same respect for learning from mistakes.

Hey guys, I can tell from this post that gcolbert is the go to man for advice on guitar building. Any questions on how to do shit just ask he has loads of experience to call on...

Good luck luck with this clueless muppet in charge now... You are going to need it.

 

[Greg_L]

Hmmm, so no offense gcolbert, but you've built 2 1/2 guitars and 0 of them were any good? Well I've seen Mutt's guitars. I really wanna build one myself. I'll PM you mutt when I'm ready.

 

[muttley600]

Hmmm, so no offense gcolbert, but you've built 2 1/2 guitars and 0 of them were any good? Well I've seen Mutt's guitars. I really wanna build one myself. I'll PM you mutt when I'm ready.

lol gerg......... gcolbert is here to see you right... Need inspiration, help, advice, a pick me up when you fuck up? He's the man.. Just look at what he has achieved......

I'm done. After 35 years building stuff I now know where I was going wrong. Like I said I'm done. gcolbert has the baton. No need for me to post any more help or encouragement....

 

[gcolbert]

<RETRACTED>

Glen

 

[muttley600]

<RETRACTED>

Glen

lol.... did you go back and read over my posts and decide that they might have been helpful after all. I thought you just asked me to do that....

A little advice, read thread before commenting. Think before posting....

Any way it's your baby now. Have at it. Everybody is hanging on your next pearl of wisdom. Like I said I#m done. I bow to your superior experiemce and knowledge.

 

[gcolbert]

lol.... did you go back and read over my posts and decide that they might have been helpful after all. I thought you just asked me to do that....

Yes I did. and I found that you provided significant and probably very helpful advice.

I still insist that the most important thing to start with is a good workspace. Do you disagree with this and if so, what priority item do you value above a good workbench and joining (note I do not specify power tools here) tools?

Glen

 

[muttley600]

Yes I did. and I found that you provided significant and probably very helpful advice.

I still insist that the most important thing to start with is a good workspace. Do you disagree with this and if so, what priority item do you value above a good workbench and joining (note I do not specify power tools here) tools?

Glen

The most important tool in any ones collection is the willingness to learn and the determination to succeed. Other important tools are patience and the two eyes in your head and the processor behind them.

Much like JCH pointed out, Give me one good reason why and not a thousand reasons why not... The man who never made a mistake never made anything.

Anyway it's your gig now. Have at it, people are waiting....