Guitar and music theory

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benherron.rrr said:
Music is a creative product, I belive it all comes down to the left/right part of the brain. Those people who are naturally creative will find it very easy to play/write music with little need to know how and why it sounds good. Then there are the more academic/logical minded people, who this doesn't come easily so they need explanations, they need to use maths and have in depth understanding of what it is they are doing. these are the people who music theory belongs to, they need these 'rules' to make music.

You can give anyone all the music books in the world, and 20+ years classical training from very young age. By technical academic standards they are great, but can they write music that goes beyond the mechanics of music? probably not.

Take Steve Vai, or Joe Satriani nobody can say that they arn't amazing guitarists, but their music is thin, hollow and boring the only way these people can think of making their music better is to play faster, more complex progressions add more unusual scales etc. . . adding more maths. but would you say that they are more amazing then a guitarist like BB King who can sit still on a chair in front thousands of people playing 1 note, bending it slightly a few times yet creating a massive emotional thrill that can by far surpass anything I have listened to from the former artists.

If you have a logical mind music theory will help you because this mind set needs some set, solid rules. If you are more creative minded then these rules won't matter, weather or not you can write a song in blah blah bullshit mode in the cock # scale doesn't matter because 9/10 these simple songs will create a better responce. and that is the point of music.
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I agree with most of what you said except the steve vai part ;) Check this out and tell me it sounds hollow and boring:


YouTube - ‪Steve Vai - "Bad Horsie"‬‏
 
Lt. Bob said:
theory is one of the tools you can aquire as you learn to play. Much like how to properly place your hand on the neck or the best ways to hold a pick etc.

Yes, you can play without learning any of those things or any other basics you can name. You can simply do it however you wish. But those techniques evolved over a period of tens of years or even hundreds of years for a reason. In general they tend to help a player get better faster. And, in general, they do help. There are exceptions of course but generally speaking they're useful for any musician to pick up as he's learning.

But much like the other techniques, once you really understand theory it's not something that you consciously use or think about while playing.
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Ya I think I'm one of those because that was classically trained (disliked every second of it) in music theory and I've only ever used it to communicate with other guitarists. I've also found that if I have to whip out theory to get through to a guitarist, they usually suck o.O I probably do use a lot of theory in my playing (obviously) but the LANGUAGE of music theory and knowing scales and what not is close to useless when writing original music IMO. YMMV.
 
So just ask Steve Vai if he thinks theory is useless. I'm sure he'd respond. It obviously didn't take any thought to transcribe Frank Zappa solos. He just "felt it". So from the evidence you present, you must really hate music education. I know I do. I hate when the weatherman tries to wow me with his "knowledge" of why the freaking rain is coming. "I could just look out the window you educated self-important douchebag arse!"
Yes, math sucks, physics suck, learning sucks. I would rather paint by numbers than learn how to mix colors. It's so much easier.
I'm always going to call it as I see it. Learning doesn't ever threaten your creativity. You learn something new everyday.
 
komposer said:
So just ask Steve Vai if he thinks theory is useless. I'm sure he'd respond. It obviously didn't take any thought to transcribe Frank Zappa solos. He just "felt it". So from the evidence you present, you must really hate music education. I know I do. I hate when the weatherman tries to wow me with his "knowledge" of why the freaking rain is coming. "I could just look out the window you educated self-important douchebag arse!"
Yes, math sucks, physics suck, learning sucks. I would rather paint by numbers than learn how to mix colors. It's so much easier.
I'm always going to call it as I see it. Learning doesn't ever threaten your creativity. You learn something new everyday.
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Hmmmm.... If you would rather paint with numbers why are you a musician? Why not a mathematician? Either way the weatherman analogy was PERFECT :) That line puts my guy making an omelette analogy to shame!!!
 
GuitardedMark said:
Well said! Reminds me of the quote that goes something like this "teachers teach because they cant do what they teach". I probably butchered that so if anyone knows it please correct me.
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Those who can, do. Those who can't teach. Those who can't do or teach are just fucked.
 
This is NOT (really, it's not) a personal attack...

(Yawn.) Another declarative statement that seems to only have been made to stroke the ego of the writer, and perhaps provoke others who may feel differently. My GOD, but this is boring.

Oh, and BTW, there are two kinds of people in the world- those who put people into one of two groups, and those who don't.
 
benherron.rrr said:
If you have a logical mind music theory will help you because this mind set needs some set, solid rules. If you are more creative minded then these rules won't matter...
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Creativity with out structure is chaos. When you create music you are using theory even if you do not know you are using it. If you were not, it would be a random string of notes. The more you understand how notes relate to each other the better you can express your musical ideas because you will have many more options available to you. And as Whitestrat said - even if you know theory inside and out - it's not a conscious thinking process used while playing music.

No one sites there thinking, hmm should i put a Dorian scale after the chord? (Well maybe some uber-music geeks) It's more like, your playing some music and somewhere in the back of your mind you "might" think - oh yeah that's dorian... But again Dorian, Mixolydian blah blah - memorizing all the names of the different modes and crap is not what is helpful in theory - it's about understanding how different chords, scales and keys compliment each other. It just helps develop musical ideas.

Your using the structures of music theory when ever you write a song or play something on the guitar. And understanding more about the structures can only be helpful. It's doesn't force you to make music more complicated - I like BB King and I don't think music theory is required to make good music - the best music is usually the simplest. Most of Zepplin is the blues pentatonic scale (Simple and part of basic theory) and it's some of the best music ever made IMO.

It seems like people think if they learn some music theory they will no longer be able to rock or something. Learning theory doesn't steal your soul.
 
stevieb said:
This is NOT (really, it's not) a personal attack...

(Yawn.) Another declarative statement that seems to only have been made to stroke the ego of the writer, and perhaps provoke others who may feel differently. My GOD, but this is boring.

Oh, and BTW, there are two kinds of people in the world- those who put people into one of two groups, and those who don't.
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LOL! I'm not offended but that did seem like a personal attack. Last line rocks though :)
 
arcadeko said:
Creativity with out structure is chaos. When you create music you are using theory even if you do not know you are using it. If you were not, it would be a random string of notes. The more you understand how notes relate to each other the better you can express your musical ideas because you will have many more options available to you. And as Whitestrat said - even if you know theory inside and out - it's not a conscious thinking process used while playing music.
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This is a really great point. A little bit different angle than the one I was trying to present in my OP. I was going more with the "when the weatherman tries to wow me with his "knowledge" of why the freaking rain is coming. I could just look out the window you educated self-important douchebag arse!" as opposed to debating the usefulness of rain. However I think my articulation could have been better as I communicated something more to the effect of "music theory for guitar player is useless" which is not quite the idea I was trying to present.
 
GuitardedMark said:
LOL! I'm not offended but that did seem like a personal attack. Last line rocks though :)
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Wasn't my intent to offend, although I can certainly see how it such a, well declarative statement as mine could be taken personally. And we all now know how I feel about such declarative statements...:D
 
Theory honks are so passionate! Too bad it doesn't translate into their music.
 
Like my take on visual art too, If you have to think too hard about it, or if it has to be explained to be appreciated: it doesn't work.

Maybe if they could theorize up a formula for 'attitude' they would understand why I go by the "three-chords-and-an-attitude" guideline. Maybe theorize how to make a SONG instead of a off-mode solo in some crazy time sig because technically - it's theoretically profound - just sounds annoying. While they're at it, figure out the formula for why bands with 3 chords and an attitude have stage presence and yet bands with 13/16 time and modally dissonant counterpoint developed by mathematicians don't. Figure out how John Cage is a canonical figure in music theory classes because of works such as "3:33" (well at least he wrote out the 'rests' on staff paper - so now its legit!) or who dropped Phillip Glass on his head.

meh just call it "experimental jazz" or something, some scenester turtleneck guy will believe it and buy you a cup of expensive java. I prefer beer, so I'll stick to rockin without thinking too hard about it.
 
If there are, indeed, two types of musicians- those who play by "feel" and "let it flow," and the theoriticans- then there are likely two types of theoriticans- those who over-think the process, and those who, well, do not over-think it and "let if flow;" Most "modern jazz" musicians probably fall into that category.
 
Greg_L said:
If you've heard one Vai song, you've literally heard them all, and they're all unlistenable wankfests..
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I have to go with Greg on this. :D


arcadeko said:
Creativity with out structure is chaos.
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Listen to some Neil Young guitar. ;)


Hey...most of us probably use some theory when writing/playing. If you consider which chord or note or time signature...that's theory. However, I don't think you need very advanced/deep theory to play well and to play music that people like, and just knowing advanced/deep theory doesn't really guarantee either.
I have to agree that many guitar players who play from a very advanced/deep theoretical point often play beyond that primal feel and widely appreciated style/sound. I'm sure they are feeling something, but most times that general audience is simply awed at their technical prowess...but the music ends up coming off rather boring and/or tedious to listen to.
It IS possible to play from a very advanced theoretical position with meticulous technique and still sound boring....not all "theoretical" music, but certainly there is enough out there that makes a lot of people's eyes and ears glaze over once you get past that "boy, he sure can play" point, and like Greg said about Vai...it all ends up sounding the same. :)

I use theory all the time...but I don't obsess over it.
 
GuitardedMark said:
LOL! I'm not offended but that did seem like a personal attack.
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It totally was :p but it was all in good fun :spank:

Greg_L said:
Theory honks are so passionate! Too bad it doesn't translate into their music.
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I know you don't mean me cause my music rocks AND lacks complex theory implementation :laughings:

Captain Ego said:
Like my take on visual art too, If you have to think too hard about it, or if it has to be explained to be appreciated: it doesn't work.

Maybe if they could theorize up a formula for 'attitude' they would understand why I go by the "three-chords-and-an-attitude" guideline. Maybe theorize how to make a SONG instead of a off-mode solo in some crazy time sig because technically - it's theoretically profound - just sounds annoying. While they're at it, figure out the formula for why bands with 3 chords and an attitude have stage presence and yet bands with 13/16 time and modally dissonant counterpoint developed by mathematicians don't. Figure out how John Cage is a canonical figure in music theory classes because of works such as "3:33" (well at least he wrote out the 'rests' on staff paper - so now its legit!) or who dropped Phillip Glass on his head.

meh just call it "experimental jazz" or something, some scenester turtleneck guy will believe it and buy you a cup of expensive java. I prefer beer, so I'll stick to rockin without thinking too hard about it.
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I agree with this 100% - Theory for Theory sake is masturbation. And if someone has to explain why a piece of art is good (music or a painting) then it is not actually good.

I don't think theory has to equate to overly complex crap - I don't want to listen to that crap OR play it. I like rock and roll myself. Not interested in esoteric equations of locrian intervals...

but when I want to thicken up a section, or come up with an interesting harmony, a few quick jots on a piece of paper using basic theory can give me some super interesting ideas. :D
 
arcadeko said:
I know you don't mean me cause my music rocks AND lacks complex theory implementation :laughings:
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It wasn't directed at anyone in particular. Just a general truth.

Amateurs get too carried away with the technical aspect of playing and composition and don't spend enough time just trying to write a good song.
 
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