Guitar and music theory

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GuitardedMark

GuitardedMark

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The language of music theory is about as important to a guitarist who wants to write original music as learning how to raise chickens is to a guy trying to make an omelette. If you know how to produce the sounds YOU want on guitar than it does not matter if you know how it works or why those sounds make you feel that way.

Many guitarists try to use music theory as a tool to systematically develop an understanding of how to be a great guitar player. The results of their efforts usually fall quite short of appealing let alone "great". The intricate sound scape that is created by a good guitar player is tremendously more complicated than anything music theory can explain. It's like trying to create a mathematical algorithm to explain humor. Many have tried but it is seemingly impossible to quantify that which creates laughter. Sure, there are some basic examples of what works but by no means is it a science.

Learning music theory will not make you a great guitar player. Playing guitar is what breeds great guitar players. Do you think Michael Jordan sat and intellectualized the friction dispersion dynamics of shooting a leather ball filled with air at a hoop to become a better free throw shooter? No, he shot hundreds of free throws a day. Guitar playing is not engineering or math. It is not a science. It is an art. Guitar is a feeling instrument and should be played with feeling, not thoughts. It should be approached as an extension of the body used to express emotion. For a guitarist, the only real purpose of music theory I have found, is in communicating with other guitarists and at the end of the day, every great original guitarist communicates with their fingers not with numbers.

Comments are welcome but please keep it mature and spare the personal attacks.
 
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I would have to totally disagree man. While I am sure that many awesome guitar players do not have the first clue about theory, it doesn't mean that it wouldn't improve their playing and quite possibly their enjoyment.

It's true that music is right if it sounds good, so you can play by ear and do just fine. But understanding the relationships in music can give you ideas and directions that you would very well might have not considered had you not know it.

Theory is a framework to build from. If you don't understand chord structure and keys and harmonies and scales you are limited to whatever you discover messing around. Basic music theory isn't very complicated and it is very handy for developing song ideas. I use it all the time.

Understanding theory doesn't change the fact that playing music is an art form - in fact I think it makes it even more intense. The complexity is beautiful, and it is math even if you don't want to know or understand the math, it's still math - it's just expressed within a different framework than algebra.
 
I do agree that some musicians increase their enjoyment of guitar playing by including music theory. The same way a cook making sushi is interested to find out the fish is frozen to kill worms. Needless to say, the cooks knowledge of sushi being frozen is near useless in him becoming a better cook. Possibly if he made some incremental adjustments to preparation and temperature control but not much.

I personally am not inspired by the guitarist who has memorized everything from a lydian augmented to a phyrgian major scale. Some people are. Bottom line is guitar is much more than the notes you play. Everything that can be learned on a guitar can be learned without music theory (in the conventional sense) and music theory does not even attempt to explain things such as tone or dynamics.

My thoughts on this are inspired by the overwhelming number of furiously flaming finger tapping shred guitarists that can't understand why their "music" isn't making people *feel*.

After studying music theory for years, some of which were professional taught to at the college of music I went and previously by many guitar teachers I started craving a difference approach and began reading about the guitarists that made me *feel* the most. Anyone from steve vai to slash to tom waits. Most of them do talk substantially about music theory and have a great understanding of it but it is not a requirement and in my case I found it to be a hindrance. I think a lot of great guitarists use music theory as a leverage tool and something to gain respect. Just about every guitar player respects the guy that knows his music theory... a little too much... I didn't feel liberated as a guitar player until I abandoned the idea that guitar was a science. Once I approached it in a "steve vai bad horsie" kind of way I felt I was finally getting the sounds I wanted.
 
It's both.

I've been playing for 30 years, and some folks think I'm pretty good. But my personal guitar idol is a classically trained former orchestra conductor. His masters is in classical guitar performance and composition.

We were in a band together a few years ago, and to my surprise, he wanted me to be the "lead" guitarist. (I was just drooling at the thought of sharing the stage at all with him). He thought I had cooler chops, more speed and maybe a touch more soul. The funny thing is, I would have given my right arm (yeah, I know, then I couldn't play at all) to have his musical knowledge.

I'm a wailer, a hack, with a bag full of tricks and a bunch of years of polishing those tricks. So I can improvise fairly convincingly in any given key. He's a musical encyclopedia, with a bunch of years of composition and theory. He can write a drop-dead gorgeous guitar part against an impossible chord structure on the first pass.

I'd rather be him (but I'm jealous). Some would rather be me. The best scenario has to be a solid combination of the two.
 
Alan holdsworth is a good example of what I'm talking about. A lot of his stuff is sheer brilliance but I cannot grasp the *MUSICAL* worth of a lot of his crazy chord progression underneath exotic mind blowing theory examples. It' seems like hes doing it just because he can. Kind of like the rock band that uncomfortably puts 1 jazz song, 1 blues song, 1 country song, 1 metal song, and 8 rock songs on their album. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

I've been a lot of fellow musicians and non-musicians (but lovers of music) who seem to really like this technical overkill style of music why they listen to that music and I've gotten some interesting responses. Anything from "they're the best" to a clever disguised "i feel like I'm better than other musicians when I listen to this stuff" responses. What I haven't heard is "because it makes me feel..."

I wish guitar was approached more as a MUSICAL instrument and less as a ego booster. I think I'm just ranting at this point but as you can see I really wish more guitarists played with their hearts instead of their minds.
 
WhiteStrat said:
It's both.

I've been playing for 30 years, and some folks think I'm pretty good. But my personal guitar idol is a classically trained former orchestra conductor. His masters is in classical guitar performance and composition.

We were in a band together a few years ago, and to my surprise, he wanted me to be the "lead" guitarist. (I was just drooling at the thought of sharing the stage at all with him). He thought I had cooler chops, more speed and maybe a touch more soul. The funny thing is, I would have given my right arm (yeah, I know, then I couldn't play at all) to have his musical knowledge.

I'm a wailer, a hack, with a bag full of tricks and a bunch of years of polishing those tricks. So I can improvise fairly convincingly in any given key. He's a musical encyclopedia, with a bunch of years of composition and theory. He can write a drop-dead gorgeous guitar part against an impossible chord structure on the first pass.

I'd rather be him (but I'm jealous). Some would rather be me. The best scenario has to be a solid combination of the two.
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I'm pretty sure as a diehard fan of music I would rather listen to you. Maybe I would be more flabbergasted or bewildered by him but I'm in it for the feeling.
 
GuitardedMark said:
I do agree that some musicians increase their enjoyment of guitar playing by including music theory. The same way a cook making sushi is interested to find out the fish is frozen to kill worms.
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I don't think this is a very accurate analogy. It may stem from our different views of what music theory is all about. I don't give a damn about memorizing lydian scales. Understanding theory to me is about getting the big picture about how musical concepts relate to each other.

A more accurate analogy would be a sushi chef wanting to know that certain types of roe and sauces work best with certain types of fish because of their subtle flavors and how they affect the overall taste of the roll - and I can assure you that it makes the difference between a chef and a "cook"

It sounds like you got some education overload on theory or something - if you studied it for years then you must realize you are using what you learned. I might feel the same way if I went to school for it :) I learned almost everything I know about theory from my guitar teacher who went to Berklee (he plays in a Zappa cover band) - he explained most of it to me in about 3 hours and then said - "there - that's 3 years if music theory condensed into a couple hours" - So I guess I got lucky - but just seeing how chords and scales and stuff intertwine gives me a lot more options when I am writing music - it opens up many possible paths for the next note

and just because I understand some of the rules doesn't mean it affects what I am playing - I am not a technical player - have you heard any of my crap?

Hell I mostly play power chords - but I enjoy theory. :D
 
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arcadeko said:
I don't think this is a very accurate analogy. It may stem from our different views of what music theory is all about. I don't give a damn about memorizing lydian scales. Understanding theory to me is about getting the big picture about how musical concepts relate to each other.

A more accurate analogy would be a sushi chef wanting to know that certain types of roe and sauces work best with certain types of fish because of their subtle flavors and how they affect the overall taste of the roll - and I can assure you that it makes the difference between a chef and a "cook"

It sounds like you got some education overload on theory or something - if you studied it for years then you must realize you are using what you learned. I might feel the same way if I went to school for it :) I learned almost everything I know about theory from my guitar teacher who went to Berklee (he plays in a Zappa cover band) - he explained most of it to me in about 3 hours and then said - "there - that's 3 years if music theory condensed into a couple hours" - So I guess I got lucky - but just seeing how chords and scales and stuff intertwine gives me a lot more options when I am writing music - it opens up many possible paths for the next note

and just because I understand some of the rules doesn't mean it affects what I am playing - I am not a technical player - have you heard any of my crap?

Hell I mostly play power chords - but I enjoy theory. :D
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Haha well said brotha! I DO use a lot of music theory in my playing and i definitely DID get overloaded on the *language* of music theory. My main gripe is with guitar players that have memorized dozens of scales but literally cant fucking bend a note a half pitch up without stopping a quarter of the way there and having to figure out if the mode of the scale just changed. It's not even like I produce these type of guitarists anymore but I'm very sick of playing with them and hearing their sub par recordings. I think the culture of guitar has embellished the language of music theory and almost enthroned it to becoming a sort of "how to become an amazing guitar player for dummies".
 
This debate has been done to death too many times.Music theory won't necessarily make you a better guitar player but it can make you a more informed guitar player.I've learned basic theory but don't apply it when i write.It's good to know though when improvising on the fly or when you break a string mid song.It's just good to know where to find a chord or note somewhere else on the fretboard when needed.It makes things easier sometimes when jamming with others.Instead of the "i'm playing this on the ... string on the... fret"
 
There are 2 kinds of people in this world. Those who think about how to do it & those who do it. There's a need for both. Life's too short. Listen to the players you like, avoid the ones you don't.
 
Sounds like anti-intellectual BS to me. Make that anti-nature for that matter. Theory is based on the physical nature of sound. Your issues lie elsewhere and you should deal with those before bashing other people for their musical choices whether you like them or not.
 
komposer said:
Sounds like anti-intellectual BS to me. Make that anti-nature for that matter. Theory is based on the physical nature of sound. Your issues lie elsewhere and you should deal with those before bashing other people for their musical choices whether you like them or not.
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This sounds like pompous douchebaggery to me.

You either have it, or you don't. Theory doesn't matter anymore.
 
Music is a creative product, I belive it all comes down to the left/right part of the brain. Those people who are naturally creative will find it very easy to play/write music with little need to know how and why it sounds good. Then there are the more academic/logical minded people, who this doesn't come easily so they need explanations, they need to use maths and have in depth understanding of what it is they are doing. these are the people who music theory belongs to, they need these 'rules' to make music.

You can give anyone all the music books in the world, and 20+ years classical training from very young age. By technical academic standards they are great, but can they write music that goes beyond the mechanics of music? probably not.

Take Steve Vai, or Joe Satriani nobody can say that they arn't amazing guitarists, but their music is thin, hollow and boring the only way these people can think of making their music better is to play faster, more complex progressions add more unusual scales etc. . . adding more maths. but would you say that they are more amazing then a guitarist like BB King who can sit still on a chair in front thousands of people playing 1 note, bending it slightly a few times yet creating a massive emotional thrill that can by far surpass anything I have listened to from the former artists.

If you have a logical mind music theory will help you because this mind set needs some set, solid rules. If you are more creative minded then these rules won't matter, weather or not you can write a song in blah blah bullshit mode in the cock # scale doesn't matter because 9/10 these simple songs will create a better responce. and that is the point of music.
 
Amen brother! If you don't have nothing to say, it don't matter how many notes you use to say it.
 
theory is one of the tools you can aquire as you learn to play. Much like how to properly place your hand on the neck or the best ways to hold a pick etc.

Yes, you can play without learning any of those things or any other basics you can name. You can simply do it however you wish. But those techniques evolved over a period of tens of years or even hundreds of years for a reason. In general they tend to help a player get better faster. And, in general, they do help. There are exceptions of course but generally speaking they're useful for any musician to pick up as he's learning.

But much like the other techniques, once you really understand theory it's not something that you consciously use or think about while playing.
 
I had tons of theory in my younger days, but I wasn't much of a player.
Over the years I just focused on playing...sans-theory...and that improved my chops.
Now I'm finally at a point where my chops can benefit from "occasional" use of theory, but I'm not off in left-field doing extreme, theory-driven stuff.

Looking at some theory occasionally at this point lets me understand a little better what/why I'm playing.

Mind you, this is aimed at typical Rock/Pop/Country/etc., but there are other music styles/situations that almost necessitate strong use/knowledge of theory. Heck, lots of pro studio or side-man gigs expect you to be able to read music on the fly...or be able to fly through keys and understand the language of music theory...but not that much for home-rec or bar band kind of playing.

Bottom line...if you ain't got some natural feel and imagination, theory will not give it to you and your playing can still suck, but theory can explain and even suggest alternative ways of playing things, so it's not a bad thing to have.
 
Someone (in this very thread!) said there are those who think about how to do it and those who do it. I'll assume that the implication there is that "theory" folks just think about how to do it. Ummm...lemme think about that--no wait I'm not a real big theory guy. But I can tell you that's wrong.

Take my friend, the maestro. When he's on stage he's not sitting in the corner staring at his fretboard contemplating which major mode he should switch to when the progression passes through a major 7th! He's rocking! Now he might switch to some funky mode that most of us wouldn't, but it sounds great. And he does it on the fly--just as quickly as I respond with a more predictable approach--because he KNOWS the stuff. Not because he's thinking about it at the moment.

Theory doesn't get in the way of playing, it enhances it. Good players who know theory don't just know theory--they're good players first. A solid understanding of music just makes 'em better. (And makes me jealous).
 
musicmachine said:
There are 2 kinds of people in this world. Those who think about how to do it & those who do it. There's a need for both. Life's too short. Listen to the players you like, avoid the ones you don't.
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Well said! Reminds me of the quote that goes something like this "teachers teach because they cant do what they teach". I probably butchered that so if anyone knows it please correct me.
 
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