Group Buy Interest?

[A.j.]

Hey Chance,

Those two shockmounts for my ASM-4's arrived last week. Looks great, surprised at the solid build quality. Finally tried out the ASM-4 too - sounds nice! It works well on my voice (Dylan/Lou Reed-ish). Very soft on top (in a good way) and ribbony. Looking forward to trying these things on horns, especially sax and trumpet. And maybe as overheads, I'm guessing they would do well taming harsh crashes and ride over ring.

Any update on those ES-24 shockmounts yet? I bought four, wouldn't mind seeing those by New Years.

Aj

 

[chance]

Hey Chance,

Those two shockmounts for my ASM-4's arrived last week. Looks great, surprised at the solid build quality. Finally tried out the ASM-4 too - sounds nice! It works well on my voice (Dylan/Lou Reed-ish). Very soft on top (in a good way) and ribbony. Looking forward to trying these things on horns, especially sax and trumpet. And maybe as overheads, I'm guessing they would do well taming harsh crashes and ride over ring.

Any update on those ES-24 shockmounts yet? I bought four, wouldn't mind seeing those by New Years.

Aj

Sorry for the delay on the mounts. That was my bad. I have been wanting to try these on horns too (no time right now) post some samples when you can
As for the other mounts, They told me they will bring them to the NAMM show (January 17th to the 20th)

 

[rickshawrecords]

I am looking for some cheap ribbons to examine, take apart, modify, and learn.

Why don't you check out my do-it-yourself AUSTIN ribbon microphone plans??
http://www.rickshawrecords.com/ribbonmic

Yes, I'm the author, and the plans are for sale... But a lot of people are starting to say it's one of the best writeups on ribbon microphone construction that's available (See the testimonials page.) In other words, it's $10 well spent if you like Ribbon Mics.

I'm a technical writer and corporate trainer by day... So trust me that it's not a half-assed rough draft with VGA cameraphone photos and meaningless technical jargon. You can actually build a really, really, really good microphone for about $100 just by following the instructions! No "group buy" or flaky Chinese manufacturer worries, and no $300 FedEx charges!

Look for a writeup on the plans in the Jan/Feb 2008 TapeOp, and I'll be shopping the design at NAMM 2008 for someone to partner with for widespread distribution and/or DIY kits!

- Rickshaw

 

[Creamyapples1]

.......*waits for it*

 

[chance]

Why don't you check out my do-it-yourself AUSTIN ribbon microphone plans??
http://www.rickshawrecords.com/ribbonmic

Yes, I'm the author, and the plans are for sale... But a lot of people are starting to say it's one of the best writeups on ribbon microphone construction that's available (See the testimonials page.) In other words, it's $10 well spent if you like Ribbon Mics.

I'm a technical writer and corporate trainer by day... So trust me that it's not a half-assed rough draft with VGA cameraphone photos and meaningless technical jargon. You can actually build a really, really, really good microphone for about $100 just by following the instructions! No "group buy" or flaky Chinese manufacturer worries, and no $300 FedEx charges!

Look for a writeup on the plans in the Jan/Feb 2008 TapeOp, and I'll be shopping the design at NAMM 2008 for someone to partner with for widespread distribution and/or DIY kits!

- Rickshaw

Whats your booth number. I'd like to yak with you

 

[mshilarious]

Look for a writeup on the plans in the Jan/Feb 2008 TapeOp, and I'll be shopping the design at NAMM 2008 for someone to partner with for widespread distribution and/or DIY kits!

Herein lies the trouble. Sure, a ribbon mic is cheap parts (other than the tranny). But the labor involved is significant, especially for a DIYer having to do the metalwork, and acquire suitable ribbon material in a single mic quantity (which you really can't do).

By the time you invest enough in production to provide a cut, corrugated ribbon and the brass case & screen, then you aren't leaving much to the DIYer, and the cost will reflect that. A group buy $50 ribbon becomes the obvious choice.

The difficulty of QC and the time lag of the group buy will eventually be overcome--whether through Chance's enterprise or MF Stupid Deals, I do not know, but you are trying to compete with Chinese labor costs, and the DIY market is very small.

If you can assemble and sell your mic for $50 profitably, then do it, but as far as shopping it at NAMM . . . everybody there can already import Chinese ribbons with better metalwork (if not ribbon tensioning), so why bother? At best, they will simply want to outsource production of your model to China, but the Chinese factories have already shown a seemingly limitless ability to generate different-looking microphone models.

It's probably a good TapeOp article . . . which have sometimes been known to inspire commercial products . . . but I wouldn't always guarantee it




PS It's much easier to cut the ribbon with a rotary cutter than a razor blade!

 

[eyeteeth]

Sorry for the delay on the mounts. That was my bad. I have been wanting to try these on horns too (no time right now) post some samples when you can
As for the other mounts, They told me they will bring them to the NAMM show (January 17th to the 20th)

Ahhhhh...

Cool. Thanks.

 

[rickshawrecords]

Whats your booth number. I'd like to yak with you

I'm not going as an exhibitor with a booth - I was surprised and flattered to be offered a NAMM pass as a guest of an (unnamed) pro audio company.

You can email me off list and I'll be glad to yak.
It's <my username> @ yahoo.com

- Rickshaw

 

[apl]

Why don't you check out my do-it-yourself AUSTIN ribbon microphone plans??
http://www.rickshawrecords.com/ribbonmic

Yes, I'm the author, and the plans are for sale... But a lot of people are starting to say it's one of the best writeups on ribbon microphone construction that's available (See the testimonials page.) In other words, it's $10 well spent if you like Ribbon Mics.

I'm a technical writer and corporate trainer by day... So trust me that it's not a half-assed rough draft with VGA cameraphone photos and meaningless technical jargon. You can actually build a really, really, really good microphone for about $100 just by following the instructions! No "group buy" or flaky Chinese manufacturer worries, and no $300 FedEx charges!

Look for a writeup on the plans in the Jan/Feb 2008 TapeOp, and I'll be shopping the design at NAMM 2008 for someone to partner with for widespread distribution and/or DIY kits!

- Rickshaw

Careful! Dragon, the owner of this BBS, will want to charge you for advertising!

 

[chance]

Why don't you check out my do-it-yourself AUSTIN ribbon microphone plans??
http://www.rickshawrecords.com/ribbonmic

Yes, I'm the author, and the plans are for sale... But a lot of people are starting to say it's one of the best writeups on ribbon microphone construction that's available (See the testimonials page.) In other words, it's $10 well spent if you like Ribbon Mics.

I'm a technical writer and corporate trainer by day... So trust me that it's not a half-assed rough draft with VGA cameraphone photos and meaningless technical jargon. You can actually build a really, really, really good microphone for about $100 just by following the instructions! No "group buy" or flaky Chinese manufacturer worries, and no $300 FedEx charges!

Look for a writeup on the plans in the Jan/Feb 2008 TapeOp, and I'll be shopping the design at NAMM 2008 for someone to partner with for widespread distribution and/or DIY kits!

- Rickshaw

After re-reading your post, I think you might have misunderstood our group buy. When you said "no $300.00 fedex charges" that was only one order for I think 40 mics (50 pounds worth) to Austrailia from the USA. I looked at the sample photos on your site, and it looks like fun, but I don't think many here would want to build them by the thousands. Anyway the majority of mics that were ordered in our group buy were LDC and SDC tube mics.

 

[rickshawrecords]

After re-reading your post, I think you might have misunderstood our group buy.

In fact, I did. I only read the last pages of the thread, not all 80+

Careful! Dragon, the owner of this BBS, will want to charge you for advertising!

I didn't mean to offend anyone, and if my post should be deleted, then that's OK by me. I wish I could say that I am selling enough plans to make decent money, but the reality is that I'm barely covering the cost of my yearly website dues.

This began because I too wanted to do a group buy of ribbon motors (off TapeOp a year ago) or get a couple low-end Nady's... But then I read a post by John Nady saying how his design and NRE which he had invested tons of $$ and time into was ripped-off by the Chinese company he partnered with and sold to anyone who could afford it, so I got pissed at the Chinese. I didn't want to play into that, so I figured I'd do some research on how a ribbon mic was made to see if I could do it... and Voila! - in 3 weeks I had bought parts, built a chassis and made a ribbon mic for myself. All USA, all DIY, and I ended-up with a very nice sounding mic.

you are trying to compete with Chinese labor costs, and the DIY market is very small.

Hopefully I'm not seen as competition to anybody. Most people would see this project as a collection of parts, with $0 for their own labor. You're right about the DIY market, so my interest is more about dissemenating the information, not so much the $10. The first rev of my plans was offered for free on another board, with requests for donations to help me recover my own costs. However 300+ people downloaded it for free, and I didn't get a single donation... so I ended the free download and put a reasonable fee on it.


- Rickshaw

 

[mshilarious]

This began because I too wanted to do a group buy of ribbon motors (off TapeOp a year ago) or get a couple low-end Nady's... But then I read a post by John Nady saying how his design and NRE which he had invested tons of $$ and time into was ripped-off by the Chinese company he partnered with and sold to anyone who could afford it, so I got pissed at the Chinese.

Well he's still selling Chinese ribbons, so he can't be that mad.

Anyway, the patents on basic ribbon technology are what, 50, 60, 70 years old? Unless you're Crowley & Tripp with their nanotubes, or Royer with the offset ribbon thingy, the only IP you can reasonably expect to protect is your trade dress, but it ain't like the RSM-1 was as well known as an SM58, so that has limited value.

Hopefully I'm not seen as competition to anybody. Most people would see this project as a collection of parts, with $0 for their own labor. You're right about the DIY market, so my interest is more about dissemenating the information, not so much the $10. The first rev of my plans was offered for free on another board, with requests for donations to help me recover my own costs. However 300+ people downloaded it for free, and I didn't get a single donation... so I ended the download and put a reasonable fee on it.

Again, ribbons are old technology, so your information is available elsewhere. There is a good page about doing reribbons with aluminum leaf with lots of photos. Your mic body is very similar to Scott Helmke's "Alice" mic, or many other DIY mic projects you could find on the Micbuilders Yahoo group. You could look up an old thread here by Marik where he fabricated a ribbon motor. There is a ribbon DIY meta at prodigypro.com. You can find the source for proper aluminum foil on Google.

So it's a bit much to expect cyberspace to pay. That just isn't the culture. I imagine you did a lot better with TapeOp.

 

[rickshawrecords]

ribbons are old technology, so your information is available elsewhere. There is a ribbon DIY meta at prodigypro.com. You can find the source for proper aluminum foil on Google... (etc. etc.)

Yes. I learned a lot from Google images of old mics, reading some of the other boards, and some pages with individual steps in the process, so instead of buying a Chinese offering, I thought - "Hey, I could make one of these by myself!"

However, there was no single tutorial anywhere for doing the whole project from start to finish, and the majors weren't about to let on how simple it is.. So I wrote down the parts I used, and a step-by-step procedure laid-out with photos and easy-to-understand instructions and finishing tips. When I built my first mic, tested it, and tallied the total cost at about $100 and one weekend, I figured others would be interested in the opportunity as well...

Sorry to hijack the thread. No offense meant.
Back to the group buy of $50 Chinese Ribbon Motors!!

 

[ausrock]

........... This is blowing my mind the cost of shipping to Italy, the UK, Austrailia, and Canada. In any future GB, it might be a great savings to have all orders to other countries sent directly from China. This would save paying double duty and double shipping. China will ship direct but their only requirement is that the payment for the products must come from one source which is TMW. An example of this is a recient order I sent to Austrailia. This guy paid for his mics (which included shipping from China and duty into the USA) THEN the shipping from here to Austrailia was $299.00. Theres something wrong with this picture. Theres got to be a way to save some of that cost. I am open to any suggestions that will save some money.........

Chance,

I emailed you a couple of weeks ago about this after I checked out "facts" with Aust., Customs Dept.

As I said then, in principle/on paper, it poses no problem BUT it means that..............:

1) Mics that aren't shipped via the US are not going to be subject to US import duties, etc., however, they will be subject to the duties of the respective countries the shipments are going to and will prices be adjusted to reflect the lack of US duties?..........

2) It will be necessary for you to refine your systems so that you have appropriate segregation of orders for different countries. This, in reality, will probably increase the amount of organisation and work you have to do.

3) Unless the manufacturer is prepared to parcel and post the individual (small) orders which with most manufacturers is highly unlikely, the shipments would likely be going to one recipient in each country AND this person is going to have to pay the shipping and import duties, etc., before the shipment is released to them..........where does this person get the necessary funds to cover these costs and how will they know an accurate amount prior to the shipment arriving?

There are more questions, etc., which would raise doubts about the praticalities of separate shipments...........it really does need serious thought.


The example of $400/299US for a 50lb parcel to Australia..........in reality, from my experiences importing mics and rack gear a few years ago, that probably isn't too bad................ how many mics were in that shipment? Divide the shipping cost by the number of mics and tell me what the "per mic" cost works out to be

 

[chance]

I don't know how or why J Nady didn't copywrite his design.The manufacturer that make our mics will not reveal what other company they make mics for. I did a copywrite on the 310 and the outside shape is deemed a "sculpture" I will be releasing my right to it soon for business reasons Just think how many clones of a C-12, or U-87 do you see out there? How many clones of a 414 do you see? None= copyrite. As far as this DIY ribbon mic goes, I highly recommend getting it. I am. What better way of learning can you get? Almost like someone holding your hand while you build? I'm getting it just to get another POV, ideas, and keep my brain in tune. (Oh,, and I am not affiliated in any way LOL)

 

[MichaelJoly]

Sorry to hijack the thread. No offense meant.
Back to the group buy of $50 Chinese Ribbon Motors!!

The group buyers bought complete, assembled microphones - bodies, grilles, capsules / ribbon motors, PC boards / components, transformers & connectors etc.

 

[rickshawrecords]

I don't know how or why J Nady didn't copywrite his design.The manufacturer that make our mics will not reveal what other company they make mics for.

I'm sure he did, and probably patented it too... And that could easily be why the mfr won't say.
In the wild west that is China, Copyright and Patent rules don't apply... I've been there. Anything you want, you can get a "supa-cheap" Chinese copy of. If someone in China can make a buck from a Westerner by stealing a good design and cutting every corner to make more profit, they will. That's what was done to Nady and although Nady continues to do well selling mic's in the USA based on the quality of his name-brand, he is not very happy about what his manufacturer did to his design.

I found the article. It's at 3dB:
http://www.3daudioinc.com/3db/showthread.php?t=8006

- Rickshaw

 

[Chris Long]

On another note, my LA rep is in China now and am waiting for their resolution to our "ribbon sag" problem. I feel confident they will resolve this. I will post as soon as I get this info.

Just a slightly off-topic tangent for a sec: it strikes me that we're not the usual customers that might be buying these ribbons, in that many of us are opening them up and taking a look.

If these mics had been shipped out of the usual retail establishments, I'd have to think that most of them would not be exanmined too closely, and be accepted as "just fine". The factory in China must be scratching their heads, wondering how they found such an...inquisitive bunch of buyers.

 

[mshilarious]

I'm sure he did, and probably patented it too... And that could easily be why the mfr won't say.

The mfr won't say because of business relations, but no patent law applies here. From what I've seen of the pics (note I am not a group buy member), these are bog-standard ribbon mics. Nothing wrong with that, it's a new mic for a good price, but it's nothing RCA, Shure, Reslo, etc., weren't doing 50 years ago (except for neodymium magnets if they have them, but that also wouldn't be patentable anymore).

To get a patent, you have to do something truly novel. A new mic shape that isn't functionally different in an innovative way (that is, that affects the performance of the mic) cannot be patented.

Relatively speaking, there are few patents that apply to analog audio electronics anymore. Most of the relevant prior art and patents are 40, 50 years old, and thus long expired. Some granted patents are openly questioned as to their validity due to prior art, and may not be enforceable.

So all you have is trade dress, which falls under trademark law, not copyright. I don't see how copyright is applicable, unless you are arguing that the mic is a work of art, which is made more difficult by the fact that is it intended primarily to be functional. But I am not an IP attorney, I just play one on TV

 

[tenkas]

Got my mics this week-end. Just want to thank Chance!

I recorded a choir and classical guitar (soloist and ensemble) with the tube mic.

Thanks a lot for putting this up Chance.