Groundbreaking productions

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You guys are all right in your descriptions of the different 'Pepper songs. I pretty much picked "Lucy In The Sky" almost as randomly as they picked the mini-clips of tape on "Mr. Kite" :). This is why I had a hard time with the idea of picking songs instead of albums. The Sgt. Pepper album really can't be boiled down to a song any more than The Who's "Tommy" as rock opera/concept album can be described by the song "Pinball Wizard". It's the same with the Walter Carlos album. The selection of song from that is completly arbitrary, it's the idea behind the production on the album that was groundbreaking.

"Good Vibrations", "Thriller", and "London Calling', however, I think are individual compositions that stand out and/or represent an album as a whole for their own individual reasons, and with those it's OK to go to the individual song.

G.
 
I agree, particularly in the Pepper case, it's really hard to remove a single aspect of it and say "that's the groundbreaking song." However, if we were to mention the Wall of Sound, it would be simple to just pick the first big single that it was used on. I'm not sure what that was.
 
corban said:
I agree, particularly in the Pepper case, it's really hard to remove a single aspect of it and say "that's the groundbreaking song." However, if we were to mention the Wall of Sound, it would be simple to just pick the first big single that it was used on. I'm not sure what that was.
Agreed.

G.
 
In my opinion you have to look at the recording technology, the processing technology *AND* the instrument innovations that occured in that period. Guitar amplifiers went from low gain to extremely high gain, synthesizers debuted as analog monophonic bleep machines and matured into digital wonder boxes with thousands of amazing sounds available with over a hundred voices of polyphony (and then used digital technology to start emulating vintage analog sounds in the mid-90's), sampling started out as expensive and dull, 8 bit sounds and matured into a scratch-and-sniff, essential element of music production. (You wouldn't have modern rap music if sampling was as expensive as it originally was.) And with the creation of these new instruments came new music styles. Can anyone imagine new wave without sweeping analog synths? Or rap without an Roland TR808 drum machine? Or techno without a TB303? Or late 80's pop without cheesy Korg M1 sounds?

Here are some of the defining moments in my opinion:

60's: Beach Boys "Pet Sounds" was the inspiration for The Beatles to really step things up production wise (as well as the deep bass sound found on Motown records) that led to "Sgt. Peppers." At this time there was a huge push from 4 track recorders to larger track counts on analog tape machines, however, with the addition of more tracks meant that each individual track was smaller in width and therefore "thinner" sounding (according to George Martin). A lot of tube gear was being slowly replaced by solid state devices such as FET and VCA based compressors. Reverb at this time was either natural room ambiance, large unweildy plate reverb, or cheap spring reverb. Keyboards at this time were mostly electro-mechanical like the Farfisa organs, the Hammond B3, although the first Moog modular synthesizers debuted in the late 60's (however, don't forget the Theremin which started popping up on Beach Boy's tracks early in the 60's).

70's: Jimmy Page is often underrated for his influence on the sound of Led Zeppelin's albums. Tom Scholz's work on the Boston albums really set the pace for the 80's. This era was marked by an ever-increasing track count, more "effect" devices such as the Echoplex, some of the first digital devices like the early Eventide harmonizers, as well as the addition of parametric equalization (courtesy of George Massenburg's 1972 AES paper). Also, the 1970's mark the entry of the first AFFORDABLE electronic synthesizers, starting in 1971 with the ARP 2600, Moog Minimoog, ARP Odyssey. Also, don't discount the dub reggae influence on later music production.

80's: The 80's were a decade of "larger than life" sounds made possible by increases in digital and analog technology that introduced devices like the digital sampler (such as the Fairlight CMI, Emu Emulator I and II) which enabled drum parts to be triggered. Affordable digital reverbs by companies such as Lexicon and Yamaha accounted for the sound of this era--which was put reverb on EVERYTHING. Chorus was another popular effect, almost single-handedly defining the "New Wave" sound (ex. The Police, Corey Hart, others). The entire credo was "bigger is better." Probably the most influential recording was Phil Collins "In The Air Tonight" because it had *THE* gated-reverb drum sound that defined the decade. Probably the most defining engineer of the 80's was Mutt Lange, who's work with The Cars, Def Leppard and AC/DC best exemplify the "80's sound."

90's: The 90's was a decade of upstarts. There wasn't a lot of NEW technology, but what had been available in the past became cheaper. Digital recording starts out on wobbly legs early on and matures by the end of the decade. The early 90's simplified the sound of the 80's. Nirvana's "Nevermind", typically considered the 'biggest' album of the decade, also typifies this sound--clear, big (but not too big), and slick sounding. As the 90's went on acts like Nine Inch Nails embraced digital platforms like ProTools (using it more as an instrument than a recorder to "mangle" sound) to create new textures. In many ways the 90's are a reaction against 80's production values--creating a DIY, dirty and unusual sound--especially for percussion, which was made smaller sounding. Another interesting note is that the 90's moved away from the "snare dominated" sound of the 80's and began focusing more on the kick drum as the primary percussive element in rock music. On another note, Ricky Martin's "Living La Vida Loca" was the FIRST #1 song that was recorded, mixed and mastered completely digital--thus validating the digital medium as a recording and production platform. While not many new instruments were created during this time, the step toward digital emulation of other instruments (first keyboards and synthesizers, later on emulation of guitar amps, vintage effects, etc...) was in vogue. Also, the late 90's saw the creation of a number of software standards such as Steinberg's VST platform which accelerated the development of software plugins.

00's: Now that digital recording has come into its prime and every effect under the sun is available to almost anyone we run into the conundrum that there are a LOT of engineers out there working with tools they may only partially understand. Because recording technology is so commonplace the musicians have a greater understanding (sometimes I'd say half-understanding) of production. This is the age of ABUSING the recording tools, not *using* them. The sound of "now" is an age of excess--radical compression, radical peak limiting, radical EQ'ing, radical sound replacement. In many ways this is a tasteless decade of childish, unwise musical excess. As much as we may wiggle our fingers in disapproval and laugh at the gated reverb of an 80's hair metal band the thought that in 10 years the production techniques of now will be as equally dated. Hopefully the mistake isn't made that the sounds of "now" were a result of inferior digital software and hardware, but the result of overcompression, too much distortion, and judgement thrown off by too-few record sales in what may be the biggest music recession of the last 100 years.
 
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The 80's ...

Alright, so I've been doing some thinking about the 80's.

:D

Like I mentioned previously, that decade, to me was the most challenging in terms of any one definitive album that represented a landmark achievement, or that brought about anything truly orginial in terms of production. Yea, Thriller sold a lot of records, and it was a landmark album and all, but Quincy Jones didn't suddenly become a genius with that record. His production skills and methods were well-established by then.

If you ask me what was the most significant paradign shift in the way records were being recorded, I'd have to say it was either Run DMC: Raising Hell, or Paul's Boutique by the Beastie Boys. Both of these were Rick Rubin, I believe. Now the reason I mention these particular records is because they were so significant in bringing rap to the mainstream. And even if you don't particularly care for rap, one can't deny that influence. And at the same time, from a production standpoint, there was a lot of groundbreaking stuff being done. Up until then, I had never heard rap sound like that. In fact, I had never heard anything that sounded like that. The production was just fantastic, and took those records to heights they never could have reached with any other producer. And the real genius behind it all: Creative, ingenius, even monumumental use of Sampling. And yea, Rubin may not have invented sampling, but he did give it a severe kick in the ass with those records.

.
 
chessrock said:
Now the reason I mention these particular records is because they were so significant in bringing rap to the mainstream.
I still think that you're missing the point with "Thriller" - it has nothing to do with sales volume or basic audio production techique; it has to do with the marriage of audio production and video production in a way in which the two now inseperably influence each other in mainstream production, and I think that is a huge landmark. The mindset of Big Boy audio production was changed forever with the introduction of MTV. Music video is to music what electromagentism is to electricity.

But I do fully agree with you on the need to acknowledge the development of the new rap production techniques and the popularization of rap as being the other huge development of the 80s. I did not bring up an example of that because I am not educated enough in the rap geneology to pinpoint a seminal recording. I knew Run DMC was in there somewhere, but wasn't sure exactly how the pieces fit. I'll take your position as being solid and give it a thumbs up. Glad you picked up the ball on that one :)
 
I would give some kind of mention to "Tubular Bells" by Mike Oldfield. For all the guys around who are one man bands and use Fruity loops all day, this album really changed the "one man band" market.
 
Not one mention of Smashing Pumpkin's "Siamese Dream" album? When I first heard that album I thought it was a production miracle. In fact I still do...
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
I still think that you're missing the point with "Thriller" - it has nothing to do with sales volume or basic audio production techique; it has to do with the marriage of audio production and video production in a way in which the two now inseperably influence each other in mainstream production, and I think that is a huge landmark.

Absolutely.

But I'm still not convinced that it changed the way music was produced, nor did it represent a significant milestone or departure from the norm in how records were made. It definitely represents a cultural phenomenon, as well as a major change within the music industry itself ... but I don't think it necessarily redefined the way music was produced to any great degree.

Other than maybe the advent of auto-tune. :D Alright, I'll at least give you that. If it weren't for MTV and the importance of the visual element (sexy chicks and dancing, etc.) ... then auto-tune would never have been a great necessity because we'd still have actual singers as recording artists.

But if you're going to credit Michael Jackson for all of this, I think you also have to give props to Paula Abdul. She's the one who choreographed all the Michael and Janet videos. She was the one who basically invented the "dance-focused music video." And she was dreaming all these moves up as a Laker girl, so ironically, the NBA and the LA Lakers played a very important role in shaping the music business when you really think about it.

.
 
chessrock said:
But I'm still not convinced that it changed the way music was produced, nor did it represent a significant milestone or departure from the norm in how records were made.
You mean the fact that "Thriller" was written as a music video - and not as a loose collection of sheet music for which the creation of music videos was only an afterthought - was not a signifigant departure in how records were made or produced? That the video counterpart was part of both the creative and business forces that shaped the form, content and arrangement of the music from the beginning amounts to little more than a "cultural phenomenon"?

Or do you mean that if almost any other regular on this board had postualted the idea, you would have been on board with it three posts ago. But the fact that it's your ol' buddy the wussy skirt-wearing drunken Irish rapper that put it forward just sticks in your craw? :D

G.
 
Returning briefly to The Beatles:

For groundbreaking production technique, I'd like to mention Ken Townsend's invention of Automatic Double Tracking, tagged with the name "flanging" when George Martin was pullling John's leg. It was first used in '66 on Revolver, if I remember right.
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
You mean the fact that "Thriller" was written as a music video - and not as a loose collection of sheet music for which the creation of music videos was only an afterthought - was not a signifigant departure in how records were made or produced?

It all depends on how you interperate the original question. My understanding of this question is that it was about recording from the technological angle.

What I'm saying is that, at the end of the day, the production quality and techniques didn't suddenly change, just because something was being written with a video in mind. I don't think Bruce Sweiden ever sat down with Quincy and said: "I'm going to use a radically different recording method... because we're doing this as a video."
 
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I agree with Sgt Pepper/Pet Sounds whole heartedly for the 60's bit. 70's wise I dont think anything radical happened production wide except that previous techniques were evolved on and they did come along way, but without breaking the sound.

In all seriousness (I suppose it depends if you are a fan or not and be bothered to write about it) I would cite some 1980's Hip Hop Old school stuff. This was revolutionary in the use of samplers/drum machines, turntables were used to make records and the whole pop scene today is still dominated by these techniques. No guitars and drums as per the last 2 decades, but using break beats, sampling off funk records, splicing the bits and machines like the Roland 808 a la Public Enemy. In fact I would use 'It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold us Back' (1988) as a case in point.
Although many here would prob laugh off this kind of 'music' you cant argue with what it has become. Hip Hop has been the sound of urban (and suburban) youth for at least the past 10 years and mainstream pop and dance music are still using its effects. Forget Nirvana with guitars, bass, drums, tape machines etc... at the same time that was going on you had all this new fresh street stuff. Thats revolutionary.
 
i would think early kraftwerk.. is pretty revolutionary.. as far as i know its the first use of electronic drums.. circa 1968 .. just imagine a world without electronic drums now
 
chessrock said:
It all depends on how you interperate the original question. My understanding of this question is that it was about recording from the technological angle.
Well, there was nothing really all that new technologically with the majority of the entries listed in this thread.

"Good Vibrations" used a reproduction of the Theremin, a device dating back to the early 20th Century, and the multitracking on vocals used current technology that everybody was using. It was the technique, the production, and how it affected the creation of the music - or at least the final recorded rendition of it - that was groundbreaking.

Exact same thing with "Sgt. Pepper". Abbey Road didn't have any secret weapons up it's sleeve, either. Cutting tape into confetti and then randomly splicing it back together is about as decidedly low tech as you can get :). It was the idea behind the production that drove that technique that was cited here as groundbreaking. But even that is not what is so special about "Pepper". The groundbreaking milestones there had little to do with technical matters; it had to do with the production of the album, from it's creation as an integrated product with a conceptual thread running through it, tying the songs together as a single product (today we call it a "concept album", back then it was groundbreaking), to it's use of sounds from orchestral arrangements to crowd noises in ways that had never been heard (or even considered "proper") in such a production before.

My contention is that "Thriller" is a benchmark in the same vein as "Pepper" (geez, did I say that? :D). The collaborative effort involving MJ and Q and Landis in taking the "concept piece" to new dimensions altogether by creating not just a song - or even a "mini movie" based upon a song - but a "music video" in the literal sense where both words are linked. Maybe it might be better said that they turned "music video" into "musicvideo"; where the music sounds like it sounds because of the video, and the video looks like it looks because of the music. The two were birthed simultaneously and have the identical DNA, they are one. Video music for a music video.

That's about as groundbreaking and "milestone" as one can get, I would think. It's also involving as much, if not more, in the way of adjustments to the technicalities of production as all the fancy stuff done on "Pepper" and "Good Vibrations" combined.

G.
 
chessrock said:
You didn't state a genre.

Are we talkin' rock here?

Hmmm. Milestones ... Milestones.

You can't really talk about it in terms of "songs," because, ya' see, at the time, we had what are called "albums." :D Just messin' with ya.

In the mid/late 60's I'd say "Pet Sounds" and "Sergeant Pepper" definitely set the tone for the era in terms of production value. Something very significant happened at that time. A paradign shift in the way music was tracked mixed, mastered, etc. To try and get in to the specifics of it all would entail a much longer post than anyone has time for right now. But suffice it to say that those two records were big ... and the ability to multi-track for the first time was at the head of it, moreless.

In the 70's it would have to be Pink Floyd Dark Side of the Moon and basically everything else they did. Led Zepelin had some pretty stunning accomplishments as well, for the time. This was during an era where multi-track recording was mature, moreless, and people were really pushing it and exploring it's limits.

1980's ... ya got me. :D Actually, that's a tough call, although I might lean a little towards the Police records as being standouts. Nothing leaps out at me, though, from that era as being truly "defining" in terms of production value. I'll have to think on it. There's probably something very obvious I'm missing. I look at the 80's as being a transitional period. Multi-tracking had reached it's maturity ... and digital recording was just being introduced. CD players very quickly became the standard, and it was an awkward transition in to digital, from both the recording side and the listening side.

And in the 90's we had Okay Computer by Radio Head, which I think has moreless set a new standard for rock records in the era of digital recording. Someone basically figured out, with this record, how to get the most out of what digital recoridng and mixing offered. In a way, the 90's represent a time when the digital and analog mediums came to a compromize, rather than one taking over the other. Same trend occured with tubes, transformers, and everything else we liked about the older recording technology. They became cool again, and we could appreciate them without having to totally revert back to them.

.

Well it looks like I don't need to post

Chessrock took my whole list :D
 
recording innovations

This has certainly been a fun thread. An entry I would like to add is Jimi Hendrix' Axis Bold As Love...psychedelia at its zenith. Eddie Kramer does this left to right panning magic that I've never heard reproduced since that time. THe whole project was full of techological trials and errors, the errors sometimes bringing the most to the table.
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
My contention is that "Thriller" is a benchmark in the same vein as "Pepper" (geez, did I say that? :D). The collaborative effort involving MJ and Q and Landis in taking the "concept piece" to new dimensions altogether by creating not just a song - or even a "mini movie" based upon a song - but a "music video" in the literal sense where both words are linked.

I agree with you in a big way. But it still depends on how you interperate the question.

The same type of achievements could be placed upon people like Richard Rogers & Oscar Hammerstein, and the way they brought musical theater in to the mainstream pop culture. Up until then, as far as mainsteam entertainment went ... you had plays, and you had music. But was it groundbreaking theater? The plays sucked. The music was average. The marriage of the two, along with the dancing aspect, made it special.

At least in that sense, Thriller was actually successful in being stellar entertaiment (at least for the time) on all fronts; good music, good production (not groundbreaking, but still very good), good dancing, horrible acting - but then again, that's not really what it was about anyway. :D

BTW: Before Thriller, Pink Floyd's "The Wall," and the Who's "Tommy" were both composed with the idea that they would be made in to movies. From their very conception, everything about them was set to a concept of a screenplay, complete with characters and visual elements that would be part of a full-length feature film.
 
chessrock said:
Oh, for crying out loud, let it go already! :D

You disagree with one of my choices. I get it. We all get it.

Let's move on for chrissakes.

G.
 
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