JAPOV
Progressively Challenged...
I live in an old house that's not well grounded... Any advice?
rob aylestone
Moderator
To be fair, the most important thing nowadays is that to comply with the safety rules most countries have - grounding is essential. Trips that save lives by reacting to current escaping to ground/earth really do save lives. For audio, we rely on a decent ground to stop circulating currents being introduced into our audio circuits.
First thing is some questions - how do you know it's not well grounded? Are you getting power supply issues like tripping, or are you hearing noise in the audio and are assuming it's grounding? We really need some details here - including which country you are in. In the UK and the US there are lots of rules about electricity supply, and serious differences in connection. Some are very critical to audio performance. Your electrical intake will use TNCS - each letter describes a particular feature - so you might see TN-C, TN-S or other variations. You could have Live(line), Neutral and Ground coming into the building separately, or ground could be joined to neutral at the switchboard panel, or ground could be separate like a ground rod - or loads of other possibilities that change from country to country, or even districts inside countries.
Extra grounding for audio improvements can even contradict these rules and possibly even become dangerous if certain faults happen.
We can advise on audio grounding, but probably best not to advise on electrical grounding - as geting that wrong can be serious stuff!
First thing is some questions - how do you know it's not well grounded? Are you getting power supply issues like tripping, or are you hearing noise in the audio and are assuming it's grounding? We really need some details here - including which country you are in. In the UK and the US there are lots of rules about electricity supply, and serious differences in connection. Some are very critical to audio performance. Your electrical intake will use TNCS - each letter describes a particular feature - so you might see TN-C, TN-S or other variations. You could have Live(line), Neutral and Ground coming into the building separately, or ground could be joined to neutral at the switchboard panel, or ground could be separate like a ground rod - or loads of other possibilities that change from country to country, or even districts inside countries.
Extra grounding for audio improvements can even contradict these rules and possibly even become dangerous if certain faults happen.
We can advise on audio grounding, but probably best not to advise on electrical grounding - as geting that wrong can be serious stuff!
JAPOV
Progressively Challenged...
Lol... Yeah', my old house in N Alabama USA predates modern construction standards. So, I'm pretty sure grounding is the issue. I have to keep my hands touching the strings of my guitar to keep it from "buzzing" lol. Plus, there's a real high pitch "drone" right at 5kh that I usually just cut with Eq.
rob aylestone
Moderator
That's not power grounding, just an eternal guitar issue. Some of my guitars are silent, others do exactly what yours does. The guitar amp is usually the cause due to the way it relies on a common ground - so with a 3 pin connector, the guitar, through the audio cable, should have it's strings grounded. Sometimes this ground seems to 'float' and when your body mass touches the strings it works as a ground, with your body working as the ground path - which isn't ideal.
Are you any good with electrics, and have a meter? Find something that is in the space that is grounded to the electrical system - so maybe radiators with copper pipe, and the metal cases of equipment you know is connected via 3 pin plus - one probe to this item and the other probe to the strings on the guitar - you should get virtually a short circuit - a few Ohms. If you get nothing, then your guitar is 'floating' and not grounded at all. This usually points to the amp. Sometimes, attaching the test meter does what your hand does - silences the noise. Sometimes people tell you to simply connect the socket to the ground with a cable, but that's something you need to really think about - as in, are you competent to do it and understand the risks if there is a fault?
Are you any good with electrics, and have a meter? Find something that is in the space that is grounded to the electrical system - so maybe radiators with copper pipe, and the metal cases of equipment you know is connected via 3 pin plus - one probe to this item and the other probe to the strings on the guitar - you should get virtually a short circuit - a few Ohms. If you get nothing, then your guitar is 'floating' and not grounded at all. This usually points to the amp. Sometimes, attaching the test meter does what your hand does - silences the noise. Sometimes people tell you to simply connect the socket to the ground with a cable, but that's something you need to really think about - as in, are you competent to do it and understand the risks if there is a fault?
JAPOV
Progressively Challenged...
Lol... My house is 60yrs old. 2 pin sockets, no ground.
It's a wonder I'm able to record at all...
I think I'm gonna' have to create a dedicated grounded circuit for my amps... once I get around to finishing the "studio" room. I bought a "fixer-upper" a few years ago, but Bidenomics is really slowing things down for me...
Yeah', I'm pretty handy... retired contractor
I've tried a power conditioner, but it needs to be properly grounded as well lol.
It's a wonder I'm able to record at all...
I think I'm gonna' have to create a dedicated grounded circuit for my amps... once I get around to finishing the "studio" room. I bought a "fixer-upper" a few years ago, but Bidenomics is really slowing things down for me...
Yeah', I'm pretty handy... retired contractor
I've tried a power conditioner, but it needs to be properly grounded as well lol.
rob aylestone
Moderator
If you bang in a ground rod, and connect your audio grounds to it, that’s usually a great noise reducer, the snag with it is when you get faults. Imagine, the old amp, with the screw on connectors for power, the ones you put on yourself. The live gets tugged and the ground wire, curled up inside because it didn’t have a pin to connect to, touches. The strings on your guitar go live. With your new ground , current flows, lots of it, and hopefully trips, breakers and fuses do their thing. The possible problems with adding grounds is quite small if done properly, but your audio solution has to be good enough for faults with everything in your home. The last thing you want is many amps of fault current getting to ground via an audio cable that you might be connected to.
E
ecc83
Well-known member
Japon, your place needs rewiring* PDQ! But in the meantime and taking in ALL of the caveats Rob has outlined I would suggest a part solution for your 'studio' electrics. Buy a "one to one" mains isolating transformer. One rated at about 1kVA should be plenty assuming you don't connect heaters to it.
The idea is that this will leave the (dodgy!) rest of the house alone but allow you to have a grounded supply for audio kit. If you can, get a transformer with an "Inter-winding-screen" as this will effectively kill any mains borne noise. They are also very effective at protecting gear from storm damage.
The downside is that you will need to have it wired in by a qualified electrician, it will also need to be some distance, 6feet min say, from audio gear to keep hum at bay and MUCH more than that from guitars!
*So does mine but it is at least properly earthed and I consider myself capable to keep it safe. In any case I really cannot afford to have it done. If I am in here in ten years time that will be a miracle and the place is easily worth £100k even at auction so the two 'kids' will be fine with it.
Dave.
The idea is that this will leave the (dodgy!) rest of the house alone but allow you to have a grounded supply for audio kit. If you can, get a transformer with an "Inter-winding-screen" as this will effectively kill any mains borne noise. They are also very effective at protecting gear from storm damage.
The downside is that you will need to have it wired in by a qualified electrician, it will also need to be some distance, 6feet min say, from audio gear to keep hum at bay and MUCH more than that from guitars!
*So does mine but it is at least properly earthed and I consider myself capable to keep it safe. In any case I really cannot afford to have it done. If I am in here in ten years time that will be a miracle and the place is easily worth £100k even at auction so the two 'kids' will be fine with it.
Dave.
Papanate
Well-known member
Ground the house - Two Prong receptors are a death trap - also they are a noise conductor - of course rewiring might not be in the budget - so you could just wire you Music Room - isolated from the rest of the house with it's own circuit breakers - I would do a minimum of 80 amps - 4 wall Circuits - and then a 15 amp circuit for the lights - there is no other way IMO - BTW your buzz noise is caused by the Guitar and Amp not Grounding.
E
ecc83
Well-known member
I quite agree. I know nothing about US electrical "code" so NOTHING I say should be taken as 'legal'! But, I cannot see any reason why OP cannot simply change all his 2 pin outlets for 3pin and install some sort of grounding system?
Most premises in UK get their juice 'out of the road' on a 50mm dia armoured cable. The steel armour in the road makes for a splendid earth* I think most US power is from overheads from 'pigs'? A copper earth stake can be used or an incoming cold water pipe NOT GAS!
There are places in the world where the mains is 'floating' and thus less dangerous in some ways because it is not referred to ground but I don't like it! In such a country you must NOT make your own earthing arrangements!
*In my area at least the incoming neutral is bonded to the armour at the meter.
Dave.
JAPOV
Progressively Challenged...
I plan to sink a rod outside my studio, then isolate and ground the outlets on that wall with some GFIs.
Even my POD Go is really noisy when I crank the gain... but my old 4/10 Deville and BOSS boxes, fuget'about it lol...
Even my POD Go is really noisy when I crank the gain... but my old 4/10 Deville and BOSS boxes, fuget'about it lol...
TalismanRich
Well-known member
Echoing what the others have said, yeah, you need to get grounded outlets. I remember the days (1960s) when equipment had two wire plugs and no ground. I also remember when we would set up, I would walk up to the PA system and see if I got a shock! The PA and my amp both had "polarity" switches, as did the bass player. We would all test to make sure we were all set the same. Back then, we didn't have handly little VOM meters. It was just touch and feel!
There were a few times when I walked up to a mic and got enough of a shock to make me see stars! Keith Relf of the Yardbirds was electrocuted while playing his guitar.
There were a few times when I walked up to a mic and got enough of a shock to make me see stars! Keith Relf of the Yardbirds was electrocuted while playing his guitar.
JAPOV
Progressively Challenged...
I think I remember hearing about Keith... Didn't he grab a mic with a guitar in his hands?
I still remember my grandmother's refrigerator from when I was a kid. It had a big chrome pull down handle, and if you were barefoot... it would light you up! lol
They should probably bring those back for us "weight watchers"
I still remember my grandmother's refrigerator from when I was a kid. It had a big chrome pull down handle, and if you were barefoot... it would light you up! lol
They should probably bring those back for us "weight watchers"
E
ecc83
Well-known member
Such accidents really should not happen these days. RCCD devices are cheap and bands would be (criminally IMO) negligent not to use one. The best sort IMO is those that can be 'hard wired' into the main 'diss' cable that feeds all the amps, keys and PA.
Running everything off one mains cable is also the best way to avoid ground loops. In UK that would give you over 2kW and over 1.6kW in US. Enough for a very large band?
Running everything off one mains cable is also the best way to avoid ground loops. In UK that would give you over 2kW and over 1.6kW in US. Enough for a very large band?