giving those "homeless" words a home in a song

nave

nave

Cave Relic
For me, The hardest thing about righting songs is getting both the music I want and the lyrics I want to come together at the same time...........I've got tons of staff paper with the right music........and I've got notebooks full of the right words but they are "homeless" cause they ain't got songs........But it's when the two come together that make the song.......So, I don't want all that old stuff to go to waste..........So,

Has anyone ever tried taking their vaults filled with songs without words and the vaults filled with words without songs....And just haphazardly started mixing and matching and trying any/every different combination of the two inorder to get that magic combo............eg Trying out all your "homeless" words in your "wordless" songs until you find combinations that make sense...

That's what I'm trying to do...........It's still very hard to tell what one way/combo of word and song is better than the other...............After you've been playing the same progressions for so long ya know.......It gets hard to look at it objectively.....

It's a bitch....


-nave
 
Nave......

Try working with some one else.....
Give your wordless music to a lyricist and give your lyrics to a musician....
Getting anothers opinion/input is fantastic.......
It's hard enough to do either........I have never been able to put the two together myself........well...just once...
Check out Tunnel of Light at NoWhere.......
It was my first song.....music and lyrics...Haven't been able to put the two together since though.....ya know?

I have great luck collaborating.....ya oughta try it.
Joe
 
Ya joro, I agree that collaborating is the answer.... I have a band and we colloborate alot....since, know one in the band really assumes the role of leader.......

thing is I've got so much original music and lyrics that I could never get it all straightened out with the band....We might work on one or two of my uncomplete songs......but, I have alot of this music and words........like notebooks and notebooks of words and songs on top of songs without words that I really like.....I'm focusing on some of these with the band....but I would like to straighten alot of them out on my own.........I know exactly how the melodies should go and I know I could re-write alot of the lyrics I have to fit those melodies perfectly without much difficulty......

I think it's really just a matter of having the balls and confidence to say that something is done and that's it..........finish it and not go back to it to change things that is my problem i guess.....I'm never satisfied, so I keep changing things........I've got about 25 songs that I could probably finish today just by giving them words.....Thing is that I don't have the confidence to do it I guess.........And it would be wierd completing twenty five songs in the same day......I would feel as if they weren't worthy.........

I don't know this post is just me brainstorming and trying to figure out how to go about this.........


BTW, I dling your song now :)


-nave
 
Well then my friend..........


I suggest that you dedicate some time and.......


as they say......
Just do it........ya know?


What's the worst that can happen?
Maybe you'll come out of it with shit.............
Maybe not.....


You are pretty good at this music stuff so, I suggest you put your nose to the grind-stone.....ya know?


Nothin' is gonna happen if you don't put the time in....
Ya know?:D

Take it easy,
Joe


P.S. What is dling?:D
 
Joro, that was a good song man...................you should be writing more songs man :) Nice work , liked it!


-nave
 
In the long run it's best to finish what you start, but with songwriting there's just too many turns. Working from the existing files of lyrics (it's often the easier game) you have you might try plugging in a few melodies you have.....it'll require some tweaking but something will eventually fit.

Have fun in the process (this is a Boyce & Hart thing), it's a good idea to try your song in a number of different styles. Hit a wall? Make it a polka. That'll loosen you up and you can move on. Still stuck? Listen to some songs that move you and take some of the energy (but not the song) and apply it to something you've done.

In a sense your collaborating with yourself here, but it's best to go through this process before working with someone else.
 
Another thought on shifting the feel. At the copywrite search site I just looked up a song by the tin pan alley songwriter Ervin Drake who wrote 'It Was A Very Good Year' in May 1961. The story was his intent was to write a simplistic folk ballad to submit to the Kingston Trio or Brothers Four. Just another folk song with no chorus or bridge he thought, till Sinatra picked it up.
 
". Just another folk song with no chorus or bridge he thought, till Sinatra picked it up."
Philboyd- I can really hear the Kingston Trio doing that song! That's a great story.

Bob
 
Tried to login yesterday but my computer crashed. Arrrgh!

Two perspectives for y'all, just to give things a twist:

1) When asked in an interview whether he keeps unused musical ideas for future use, Geddy Lee (Rush) said he never does that. He trusts himself enough as a writer to know that he will come up with more good ideas when the time approaches, so he doesn't hang onto those unused bits.

2) Bob Dylan, in an interview with Paul Zollo, referred to reworking his songs as a sometimes ongoing process. He said something like "They ain't set in stone." He tinkers with some songs for years, evidently.

Of course these guys have been writing songs for a long time. Perhaps the beginning songwriter should hang onto the leftovers for future use. I suspect, however, that the more experienced the songwriter becomes, the less likely the songwriter will want to use the old bits. After all, if it wasn't good enough to use previously, how is it going to stand up next to material you write later when you've grown and gotten better?

As to the never-ending editing of a song, I think that approach or work method can be useful to those of us developing our craft in our home studios, where time and cost considerations aren't an issue. At the same time, there comes a point where we have to accept that the song is finished and that we need to move on to other things.

As long as you have your tracks, you can always return to them to remix or tinker, but again I suspect that it's better to get the song to point where you can be satisfied that, if not perfect, it's acceptable to you, because it lessens the temptation to fidget with it in an effort to achieve perfection. You have new material to attack and new ideas to cultivate.

Dylan's example, too, is slightly different in that he's changing a song over time, but many performers' songs become different over years of playing live, if for no other reason than to alleviate boredom for the performer.

Wow, this may be my first official HR rant! I'd better stop before the natives get restless — but thanks for playing, anyway :D.
 
Quote from beaverbiscuit
"After all, if it wasn't good enough to use previously"


That's the thing beaver, these lyrics and music Im trying to fit together really aren't old or things I've tossed away because they didn't work the first time.... They're some of my best lyrics and some of my best music........It's just that the two(lyrics and music) seldom come together for me in one swift swoop.......I still continue to right new songs(music and lyrics) on a daily basis so it's not like I'm holding on to these........I just want to finish this larger body of work........


See I usually start with the music writing.....I never force the music....I kinda just let it come and develope by itself....What I'm developing at this early stage is melody..........During this process Im usually thinking of lyrics but I never make definite choices about lyrics.......(That is what I think my mistake is)........In otherwords if I know how the melody & prosudy {(spelling?) the way the lyric rythemically falls on the meter} should go then I should immediately write the lyrics down and live with them.............However, I'm afraid that if I do that ..that the content of the lyrics will be compromised....

I find that most of my better lyrical efforts come independently of music..... so naturally, I would rather use this stuff then just inventing lyrics on the spot..............

The overall problem is this, My best lyrics come independently of music and my best music and melody comes to me independent of any lyrical content......So I'm sort of trying to fuse the best of both worlds that have developed separately from one another and get them to become one.... my best music with my best lyrics..... that is the goal.............


-nave
 
Uh, I think It may be too late for that ulcer thing :D Your exactly right Bob..........I am overthinking it...........Im guitly I admit it...


Btw, Beaver don't worry about the rant.......I do it all the time :)


-nave
 
Uh, thanks. . .

. . . for the Hannibal Lecter entree, Buffalo. I'm *definitely* glad I'm no longer a chronic worrier after seeing that!

Hey nave, didn't mean to say that what you had set aside for the moment was less than good. I think maybe my brain got tangentially misaligned from the main point :D, another curse I suffer. But I do know what you mean about fitting lyric to music if they aren't written concurrently.

Even though I think my lyric writing is better than my melody creation, I think the melody is more important in the long run. Melody is what keeps the song in the average listener's head and heart, and it's what draws most people into the song. It's like buying a ticket for some sort of amusement ride. If the ticket buyer enjoys the ride and it's not outlandishly unfamiliar or uncomfortable or boring to him , chances are he will ride it again and again. Otherwise it won't entice him to invest anything into the experience, particularly emotion (except for maybe "I hated it").

Paul Simon once said something about poetic lyrics being problematic for songwriting, that they don't work as well as common vernacular (at least generally speaking). But he was also probably referring to "lofty" poetry, with high and lofty language. Walt Whitman's stuff might make pretty good song material, actually, and some of the lyrics Fish used to write for Marillion are poetry without being egg-headed.

I know this is sort of overkilling the subject (sorry, Buffalo Bob :) ), but maybe the best thing to do is to absorb all this theory behind what we do as writers and then just get after it (thanks, Buffalo Bob :D). If it ever becomes an onerous, taxing job or duty we have to complete, it's time to hang 'em up and find something more fun to do. After all, we don't *work* music, we *play* music.

And that's very cool indeed :cool:.
 
hey bob thanx alot for that pic....really thanx :D



Yah, beaver I here ya man.......I agree that melody is what makes it....at least for me anyhow............It's always the melody.....Afterall, I will seldom ever wind up learning all the words to any song if the melody doesn't entice me......It has to have a good melody because if it doesn't I won't listen to the song enough to ever even learn the words.............


Anyway, as far as music being play and not work.......I kinda go both ways on that one......It's fun for me .....But I also put a lot of work into it...........I guess I sort of have the:

"NO PAIN, NO GAIN" philosophy...


-nave
 
I agree, nave; songs can be a struggle to work through, and they often require a bunch of effort to complete. But I guess to me it's kinda like playing a sport (hoops, let's say). After two or three hours of ball, my body lets me know about it. I'm tired, sometimes sore, and ready for a shower and bed. But it was still fun to play. And to me it's not even about how many games my teams won over the course of the evening but rather about how much I pushed myself to perform and how many things went right.

To carry the analogy further, think about how a pro player such as Kobe Bryant approaches the game. (I prefer college ball, but the pros play longer minutes over a longer season.) He goes out and works hard on both ends of the court, puts up good numbers night after night, and after the game he always seems to be smiling. If I tried to keep up with Kobe for 48 minutes, I would look foolish. He is just too good for me. What he does looks effortless. Even though he is sweating and catching his breath a little afterward, he's so accustomed to the energy output that it doesn't strain his body like it would mine.

I think songwriting is comparable to hoops in that you *do* put forth effort, sometimes to the point of straining, but you still enjoy the process. Yes, the finished song is also nice, but to me it's as much about the discoveries you make as you're writing. And a songwriter who is accomplished and at the top of her game makes the effort seem minimal because she's used to it. Her "game" appears seamless, but it took hours upon hours of development to get to the point where she can write so wonderfully. Like Kobe, maybe her first efforts were too immature or self-focused (remember Kobe's first year?), but she learns to manage the weaknesses and concentrate on her strengths.

Wow, another rant, and it's only Wednesday. I'm outta control :D.
 
Hey Nave,

I don't know anyone that doesn't go through this periodically.

You definately are overthinking here.

My vote is for collaboration, even if just for a break..

-Don't get a production house mentality and count all the 1/2
written tunes you have and I'm sure there's lots of great
stuff there----just get some guys/gals together and noodle!

How's it going anyway????
 
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