Getting the vocals to sit well in the mix

[Carlitov]

i think i have read every thread on here discussing mixing, and i have tried everything to apply these methods and get recorded vocals to sit well in a mix, but somehow i just can't quite get it there. can anyone help me? i can post a link to one of the tracks so that you might take a listen. i need professional help. the vocals were recorded for rap.

 

[Cloneboy Studio]

Rap eh?

Doubling, compression, EQ and reverb should do the trick.

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

99.9% of the time, a problem with vocals sitting well is a problem with the song's arrangement.... too much other stuff cluttering it up.

The easiest way to approach it is to mix the vocals in with the basic groove tracks EARLY in the mix, rather than after you've created an "instrumental" mix and you try to bring in vocals at that point.

Gettings the vocals in in the early stages means you end up balancing the rest of the tracks around them, rather having to fight to fit the vocal in a cluttered mix. And if there are tracks that a overshadowing the vocals, you'll hear it clearly when you try to bring them in on top of the vocal track.

 

[Carlitov]

Hey Cloneboy and Bluebear, thanks for the replies. Cloneboy, are you suggesting that chain of effects in that order? don't think i have ever worked the chain in that order before. Bluebear, i haven't really tried getting the vocals in early because of exporting mixed songs from another program. guess i really didn't think about the clairty gained by mixing the vocals in early.

 

[Massive Master]

Put the vocals in FIRST if you can - Get the vocal track sounding exactly how you want it - SOLO.

Bring up other tracks one-by-one and listen carefully to see if they're "arguing" with the vocal track. If so, EQ out a little of the offending frequencies, turn the track back down and go on to the next.

This way, no matter what, you'll have a spaced carved out for your vocals.

And of course, heed the Bear - You can still get the mix far too cluttered, even if the vocals aren't being stomped on.

 

[Fixxxer76]

Solo vocals dont sound good

I have the same problem of getting vocals to sit in. It seems like they are too upfront and bassy. I try using low shelf filter and reverb but rev just makes it sound messy. When i compare it to acappellas of professional songs it just sounds to spread out and not tight enough. I use a good mic and preamp and go right into my sound card, so i dont know what the matter is? please help. Im going nuts

 

[Cloneboy Studio]

Hey Cloneboy and Bluebear, thanks for the replies. Cloneboy, are you suggesting that chain of effects in that order? don't think i have ever worked the chain in that order

As far as I know that is the 'standard' effects order for vocals.

But listen to Bluebear--all the mixin' and compressin' and eq'n in the world can't help you if the mix is cluttered and ineffective. Write your songs to deliver effective vocal lines.

Early hip hop (Melle Mel, Curtis Blow, Run DMC) were minimalists employing little more than a few DJ "samples" and loops mixed with some analog synths and TR808. What more do you need?

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

I use a good mic and preamp and go right into my sound card, so i dont know what the matter is? please help. Im going nuts

If you're comparing your results to professional recordings, what is it you're calling a good mic and preamp?

Also - the gear's only about 2/3 the answer, the rest is engineering skills... not to mention the talent occurring in FRONT of the mic.

 

[Cloneboy Studio]

I think the bare minimum for a 'good' mic preamp *might* be the Focusrite platinum stuff... definately the HHB Radius stuff. A Presonus Bluetube just aint gonna cut it.

 

[Fixxxer76]

Im using a symetrix 528. i know that its 2/3 engineering and i dont understand how to get it to sit in. Is there any basic things i should be doing. i try to use eq, delay, reverb but it all just seems to add effects, not give the vocals a set in sound.

 

[Bartman]

Great suggestions

I just had one of those golden "I get it now moments".

My approach to mixing is very intuitive and musical (I'm a guitarist), not based on sound engineering theory. Since I don't have the technical knowledge (though I'm slowly learning) I follow my ears.

When I look back at what I consider to be the best sounding vocals I've recorded, all of them are within more minimalistic arrangements. I hadn't thought about this until I read through this thread.

In general I add vocals to the mix last. I've come to the conclusion that this has been a bad idea and will now experiment with working on lead vox first or at least much earlier in building a mix.

An extremely simple approach that I have overlooked for a long time. The posts suggest that I am not the only one who has reated lead vocals, in a way, Like Karaeoke......Geesh!

Thanks to all for sharing your conceptual approaches. My lead singer will most certainly thank all of you.

Bart

 

[grinder]

I usually put down drums and scratch bass and rhythm guitar, keeping the bass part simple. Then do the vox the way I want them to sound. Then I can redo the bass and guitar the way I want them, making sure the arrangement doesn't clash with the vox. Then add melody guitars and such. That way I know the most important part of the song, the vocals, will be unobstructed. If I add a part and it takes away from the vocals, I try something differant.

 

[mixandmaster]

I'm thinking that since you're doing hip hop there's a chance that you're working with a music track that has already been arranged/finished (whether it's a loop or a premade beat). I would suggest that you set up two chains of eq/compression. One for the music, one for the vocal. Work them both seperately so that they compliment one another. Maybe your vocal needs to be more compressed. Or maybe it's the track. You just have to keep trying different things. It could be that there's a certain frequency range in the track that keeps getting in the way of the vocal...

Hard to know without having the tracks in front of me, though.

 

[Teacher]

Panning/spatializers/reverb/delay(reverb and delay I usually put on an aux bus) is your friend. How I usually mix hip hop tracks is everything is stereo except the vox, kick, snare and the subs in the bass(the higher frequencies of the bass i do them in stereo to)

FYI not sure if my reasoning is correct but it gives me good results nonetheless

For stereo there are 3 channels Mono(middle), Left and Right, So i'll usually mult my MAIN melody 3 times one for each. The Mono signal I'll usually mix in low and have a spatializer set to really wide. The other 2 are panned left and right ...not hard though, The PSP Stereo pack is great for this or if you have the waves stuff the S1 imager is great too. For the secondary melodies and percussion I'll just copy them two times for L and R but won't pann them as hard as the main melody.

you can check some of my stuff here to see what the end result of all that is www.sicbeats.com

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

For stereo there are 3 channels Mono(middle), Left and Right,

well... not really... stereo is a 2-channel format consisting of a L+R component (sounds common to both channels) and a L-R component (the difference in sounds between both channels)......

That's if you want to be precise about the definition......!

 

[Teacher]

well... not really... stereo is a 2-channel format consisting of a L+R component (sounds common to both channels) and a L-R component (the difference in sounds between both channels)......

That's if you want to be precise about the definition......!

makes sense....the bear is always here to save the day

 

[Carlitov]

what's up mixandmaster? yeah, generally i do record over already made and mixed music. i guess my initial question had two parts. the tips i've been getting are helping with any of my personal tracks, but with tracks that i get ready made, it's still kind of a blur. i seem to get it in there but somehow the end result of the vocals is either too high or too low. guess my ears are bad, lol. lately, i've been listening to the mix really low (bats could barely hear it), and i get the vocals just louder than the loudest instrument i hear. still the vocals come out too low. sidenote: i had always been told to use a chain of eq then comp, but the other way around helped on vocals a lot.

 

[mixandmaster]

what's up mixandmaster? yeah, generally i do record over already made and mixed music. i guess my initial question had two parts. the tips i've been getting are helping with any of my personal tracks, but with tracks that i get ready made, it's still kind of a blur.

Like I said, maybe the problem is in the music, not the vocal. Snares/claps can be a problem in hip hop. When they're too soft, the beat sounds WEAK, when they're too loud, they kill the vox. But they've got to be pounding. One trick I do for vocals in hip hop is limit the hell out of them THEN de-ess (you'll need to if you limit them heavily). Not the prettiest sound, but it's supposed to be in your face. AND then consequently, you can kind of move them back in the mix.

And as far as vocals being back in the mix, there's a LOT of very successful hip-hop where they are back a ways, so maybe you're worrying too much about nothing. Also, hip hop usually is mastered with a heavy hand, so what you might be missing compared to big releases is the mastering stage.

 

[frank_1]

Carlitov :

Post that Sound file you mentioned earlier.

 

[LemonTree]

compression can help even out a vocal and stop it jumping out where it shouldn't. Sometimes the simple answers are overlooked.