Getting the most out of four tracks

U

ultrasound

New member
I know you can record onto say tracks 1, 2, and 3, and then bounce those tracks onto track four whilst also playing into track four. Then there are 3 tracks left. So that's 7 in total. And you could keep on going.

I also heard you can record on all 4 tracks and then record all those tracks onto an external tape machine, then record it back into the four track. That way you can bounce in stereo by using a track for the left channel and a track for the right channel. And keep going that way too.

Does anyone have some advice, tips or tricks you can use to make the best of the four tracks? My machine is a Tascam 244.
 
Sounds like you've got your basic options figured out.

When I was recording on 4-track w/ a live band, we did bass & drums on track 3 and guitar on track 4. Then a vocal on track 1, bounced to track 2 while recording another vocal overdub. Then adding either an organ or another guitar overdub on track 1. For the stereo spread, it would be something like bass/drums center, one guitar at 3 o'clock, the overdub guitar hard-left and the vocals slightly left of center.

The last song I recorded all the way through on 4-track (on a Scully 280) was laid out like this:

main track:

1 - maestro rhythm king
2 - acoustic 12-string
4 - drums
bounce all to 3 (in PLAY mode)

1 - glockenspiel
3 - maestro/acoustic/drums
4 - additional drums
bounce all to 2 (in PLAY mode)

1 - vocal 1
2 - maestro/acous/drum1/drum2/glock
bounce 1 to 3 (in SYNC mode), while recording vocal 2

1 - rocksichord
2 - maestro/acous/drum1/drum2/glock
3 - vocals
bounce 1 to 4 (in SYNC mode) while recording 12-string lead to 4

1 - bass
2 - maestro/acous/drum1/drum2/glock
3 - vocals
4 - 12-string electric/rocksichord

--

intro:

1 - bass
2 - rocksichord
3 - glockenspiel
4 - electric 12 string

--

outro:

1 -
2 - rocksichord
3 - melodica
4 -

--

the track can be found here if you want to hear it: https://soundcloud.com/donnylang/magic-hero-vs-rock-people-who
 
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lonewhitefly said:
Sounds like you've got your basic options figured out.

When I was recording on 4-track w/ a live band, we did bass & drums on track 3 and guitar on track 4. Then a vocal on track 1, bounced to track 2 while recording another vocal overdub. Then adding either an organ or another guitar overdub on track 1. For the stereo spread, it would be something like bass/drums center, one guitar at 3 o'clock, the overdub guitar hard-left and the vocals slightly left of center.

The last song I recorded all the way through on 4-track (on a Scully 280) was laid out like this:

main track:

1 - maestro rhythm king
2 - acoustic 12-string
4 - drums
bounce all to 3 (in PLAY mode)

1 - glockenspiel
3 - additional drums
4 - maestro/acoustic/drums
bounce all to 2 (in PLAY mode)

1 - vocal 1
2 - maestro/acous/drum1/drum2/glock
bounce 1 to 3 (in SYNC mode), while recording vocal 2

1 - rocksichord
2 - maestro/acous/drum1/drum2/glock
3 - vocals
bounce 1 to 4 (in SYNC mode) while recording 12-string lead to 4

1 - bass
2 - maestro/acous/drum1/drum2/glock
3 - vocals
4 - 12-string electric/rocksichord

--

intro:

1 - bass
2 - rocksichord
3 - glockenspiel
4 - electric 12 string

--

outro:

1 -
2 - rocksichord
3 - melodica
4 -

--

the track can be found here if you want to hear it: https://soundcloud.com/donnylang/magic-hero-vs-rock-people-who
Click to expand...

Donny, I don't know if I'm misreading something or if you made a typo, but something in your track sheet doesn't make sense to me. You say that you recorded on tracks 1, 2, and 4 and then bounced that to track 3. So far so good.

But then you say you record on tracks 1, 3, and 4 and bounce to 2. But wouldn't you be recording over your first sub-bounce on track 3?

Or is this a "Play" mode vs. "Sync" mode type of thing? I don't quite understand how that works because I've never used a deck with that on it.

And in the second set, you have maestro/acoustic/drums listed on track 4, when you had just bounced them to track 3. ??? I'm confused. :) What am I missing?

Sounds great though!
 
famous beagle said:
Donny, I don't know if I'm misreading something or if you made a typo, but something in your track sheet doesn't make sense to me. You say that you recorded on tracks 1, 2, and 4 and then bounced that to track 3. So far so good.

But then you say you record on tracks 1, 3, and 4 and bounce to 2. But wouldn't you be recording over your first sub-bounce on track 3?

Or is this a "Play" mode vs. "Sync" mode type of thing? I don't quite understand how that works because I've never used a deck with that on it.

And in the second set, you have maestro/acoustic/drums listed on track 4, when you had just bounced them to track 3. ??? I'm confused. :) What am I missing?

Sounds great though!
Click to expand...

ha, yeh I goofed there! reverse tracks 3 & 4 on that 2nd set and it makes sense!:

"1 - glockenspiel
3 - maestro/acoustic/drums
4 - additional drums
bounce all to 2 (in PLAY mode)"

I corrected the original post! (thanks for reading through it so thoroughly!)
 
With the 244, do you have the ability to record all four channels onto one track? Alternately, do you have another mixer available? Because if you accept from the start that the end product will be mono, then there's no reason you couldn't double (or triple!) up parts on one track, or more. As long as you know what levels to set and can live with whatever live EQ you have the ability to do, you could squeeze a lot out of 4 tracks. I myself had 3 tracks and no ability to bounce, and ended up with a few songs that have 5-6 different instruments on them, so with a 244 there are possibilities upon possibilities!
 
...

Nearly everyone with a 4-track has done track bouncing at one time or another. If you're extremely careful with levels and balance, your results can be acceptable. I'd not look to track bouncing as a magic bullet, tho. Having done this (I think) from end to end, currently I'd tend to be conservative with track bouncing and generally only bounce minor parts in behind more major parts.

If you record-in a live part to the target track each time with the tape based parts and take it to the max, (do the math), you will end up with a 4-track tape recording that contains 10 "parts", (the 'internal' bounce). This can boost the utility of the basic 4-track recorder, and/if you keep your submixes judicious it can produce decent results, keeping in mind that you will always incur a sonic penalty when you bounce tracks.

Alt., using the "external bounce" method out then back in to/from an external stereo recorder, the math changes a little & the production value may go up a fraction, but you're still in the same bucket.

The other considerations are that a purely "internal" (collapse) bounce destroys the primary tracks as the recording progresses, and the "external" bounce preserves the primary tracks, in case you want or need to revisit the submix at any time later. It's something to consider in advance, I think.

My current philosophy is either to (sorry/redundant) bounce minor parts in behind major parts, or if track bouncing is a prominent and regular part of your productions, just step up to an 8-track going forward.

F/I, a raw 1st Generation 4-track cassette recording will sound more robust than a comparable 1st Generation 8-track cassette recording (Tascam 488/mkII/238/688), but a raw 8-track recording as such will always sound better than a 4-track recording that incorporates bouncing to achieve 8 (or more) "parts", with all other factors being equal (which they almost never are).

To cap it off, I'd virtually never recommend track-bouncing on an 8-track cassette format, which almost speaks for itself. (Larger 8-track formats would be more amenable to track-bouncing schemes).

I know this is a bit of an apples/oranges comparison, for many reasons, (different songs, different recorders, different years), but:

Tascam 424mkII with no bouncing

Tascam 424mkII with no bouncing

Tascam 244 with maximum bouncing

Tascam 244 with maximum bouncing

Tascam 488mkII with no bouncing

Tascam 488mkII with no bouncing

:spank::eek:;)
 
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Hammerstone said:
With the 244, do you have the ability to record all four channels onto one track?
Click to expand...
Yes

Hammerstone said:
As long as you know what levels to set and can live with whatever live EQ you have the ability to do, you could squeeze a lot out of 4 tracks.
Click to expand...
Agreed, with the requisite sonic penalty you get with 2nd Generation tape tracks and loss of individual control of parts.

Hammerstone said:
I myself had 3 tracks and no ability to bounce, and ended up with a few songs that have 5-6 different instruments on them, so with a 244 there are possibilities upon possibilities!
Click to expand...
I'd agree with that, in context, but FWIW if you have the ability to work with a group who can aid and assist you in "packing" the tracks in a live-to-tape setting, you'll get much more robust and superior sounding 1st Generation tape tracks on the venerable 244. Not everyone has the opportunity to work with other people, and I've been thru phases where I'd do separate live-to-tape parts thru many methods, including triggering programmed parts off with my toe, etc., which may sound funny but in a track-limited environment you do what you can do in this regard. "Packing the tracks" method is always preferable to "track-bouncing" in nearly every case. It's also more stringent on getting multiple parts right in one pass, which in itself is a higher level of achievement, and the production value reflects that (to the ear).

:spank::eek:;)
 
Thanx J!

There is indeed a lot going on in that one. "What in the World" is part of my overzealous bouncing period, and it's swimming in hiss to prove it!

I just remembered that version of "Fashion" was closer to 'aggressive bouncing' rather than 'maximum bouncing'. Believe it or not there's a further version of "Fashion" I have that's even more bounced than that, but it was so sonically inferior that I ultimately went to post with the more moderately bounced version.

I think the 244 is a great unit and track bouncing is a handy technique that's there if you need it. YMMV.

:spank::eek:;)
 
In my personal opinion, I think external bouncing is always the best option if you can do it, for several reasons:

1. You can fill up all four tracks and bounce them to a stereo pair instead of only filling 3 tracks and bouncing them to mono.

Let's say you want drums, bass, guitar, and keys as the basic rhythm track, and you want each one to have their own track at first (for maximum processing, EQ, etc.). If you bounce internally, you'd have to record, say, drums (TRK 1), bass (TRK 2), and guitar (TRK 3) first. Then you bounce those to TRK 4, and they'll all be in mono now. Then you record the keys to TRK 3, and you have TRKS 1 and 2 open for other things.

But if you use external bouncing for the same four instruments, it's like this: You record drums on TRK 1, bass on 2, guitar on 3, and keys on 4. Then you bounce them to your computer (or DAT, or R2R, etc. ... preferably not a cassette deck unless it's a really nice one) as a stereo pair. This way, you can pan each instrument exactly the way you want it. Then when you transfer this back to the 4-track, you'll have 4 instruments mixed to 2 tracks, but they'll each be panned exactly where you want them.

2. By bouncing externally, you can save your earlier sub mix in case you decide you don't like something you did.

In our example above, for instance, when you bring the stereo mix back into the 4-track, you don't have to record over the original four tracks. You can start on a fresh new tape or simply skip to the end of your original tracks and start after that, so you preserve your original 4 tracks untouched. This way, you can always go back to them if you later decide that you really mixed the drums too loudly or something. Of course, this would mean starting everything over from that point (any tracks you'd added to that stereo mix wouldn't be of use anymore and you'd have to redo them), but at least you do have the option. With internal bouncing, it's destructive; you can't go back.

3. There's not a problem with crosstalk as there can be with internal bouncing.
 
A Reel Person said:
There is indeed a lot going on in that one. "What in the World" is part of my overzealous bouncing period, and it's swimming in hiss to prove it!

I just remembered that version of "Fashion" was closer to 'aggressive bouncing' rather than 'maximum bouncing'. Believe it or not there's a further version of "Fashion" I have that's even more bounced than that, but it was so sonically inferior that I ultimately went to post with the more moderately bounced version.

I think the 244 is a great unit and track bouncing is a handy technique that's there if you need it. YMMV.

:spank::eek:;)
Click to expand...

Dave, did you use noise reduction on that recording?
 
hey thanks everyone for all the great advice. especially A Reel Person for all the inspiring tracks. Love the lo-fi and the Casiotone drums. Totally my cup of tea.
 
Yw!

ultrasound said:
hey thanks everyone for all the great advice. especially A Reel Person for all the inspiring tracks. Love the lo-fi and the Casiotone drums. Totally my cup of tea.
Click to expand...
Lofi is good if it comes with inspiration! I was inspired to cram numerous parts in there thru bouncing, in the scope of vision I had to reproduce the song, which in general was to be a faithful and authentic cover. The lofi nature illustrates the sonic penalty to be paid in overly aggressive track bouncing. YMMV!
:spank::eek:;)
 
beagle was it you that did some stuff on a 414 with your wife or girlfriend some time back? Acoustic guitar and voice?

If I'm remembering correctly the results were really good...like "pinch me...there's no way that's cassette" good.
 
sweetbeats said:
beagle was it you that did some stuff on a 414 with your wife or girlfriend some time back? Acoustic guitar and voice?

If I'm remembering correctly the results were really good...like "pinch me...there's no way that's cassette" good.
Click to expand...

Yes, I think you're talking about my wife and I doing a cover of "Eyes on Fire" (by Blue Foundation) on my 414. Is this it?
 

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