Getting that 60's Powerful Bass Sound!

[rene-lemieux]

Can somebody tell me, or direct me to another thread that tells how to get that really powerful, yet not very deep bass sound found on just about every 60's recording session. From what I know, it lacks sub freq's, but does simply cutting those freq's do the trick? Let me know where I can find my answer.

 

[RAMI]

Let me know where I can find my answer.

You got a bass??? You got fingers????

 

[mjbphotos]

In the 60s, the sub frequencies were seldom recorded - the equipment was not up to it, with low cutoff around 60Hz. Cutting those frequencies will not give the sound - you need to have an amp that is adjusted to sound the way you want it, then record it, then "make a place" for it in the mix by EQing both it and the other instruments in the mix.

 

[Seafroggys]

Flatwound strings, gives you all the "ommmph" you need. Not much in the high end treble though, but really fat sounding.

Try frowning face EQ.

 

[miroslav]

Yeah...I have two bass guitars...one with flatwounds, and that one gets used 70% of the time.
But I don't cut anything in the subs...so I get that fat, pillowy bass.

 

[rene-lemieux]

In the 60s, the sub frequencies were seldom recorded - the equipment was not up to it, with low cutoff around 60Hz. Cutting those frequencies will not give the sound - you need to have an amp that is adjusted to sound the way you want it, then record it, then "make a place" for it in the mix by EQing both it and the other instruments in the mix.

Ok, I can dig it, I do a lot of my bass recording through a fender bassman 59 tweed reissue, which gets the tones I want, but in the mix its not big enough without giving it massive amounts of low end boost, which makes it all murky. Does the fact that It's an open back cab make a big difference or not in a recording situation? I also have a bassman tv-15 bass amp I could use, but I've always liked the sound of the guitar amp.

Is there anything I can do at the mixing stage to satisfy my craving? Compression p'haps?

Another thing I feel might have SOMETHING to do with it is the use of tape. The only records I've heard today that have a similar sound to what I'm looking for is the bass tone that they have on the daptone records. It's almost like the bass is distorted, but at the same time its completely clear, it's just soo driving. Now, I'm not saying its all in the tape, and It may be just a production choice achieved by other methods, but to me it smells like tape compression, correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, out of curiosity, wasn't the equipment capable of recording below 60Hz back then, but had to be cut to avoid needle jumping?

As for flatwounds Miro, that's a good idea, I only use one bass however and don't you need to get a bass setup for flats? (intonation and stuff like that) Let's just say I have cold feet...

 

[miroslav]

Naaa...if your guitar is already set up...just remove the roundwounds and put on flatwounds.

As long as you are not going to do an extreme gauge change...the neck/intonation won't be affected by the flats.

 

[Ronan]

The most important thing is that those recording did not have a lot of thing competing with the bass in the arrangement. This allowed the bass to really shine through the mix.

 

[TripleM]

Flatwound strings, gives you all the "ommmph" you need. Not much in the high end treble though, but really fat sounding.

Yeah I was going to say that the equipment used on the "producing the sound to begin with" side of things is important. Flatwound strings are a big part of that. The bass itself is, of course, another big part of the picture.

I think another thing is to make sure your other tracks leave room at the low end for the bass. Don't necessarily be afraid to roll off the lows of a guitar up to 180hz or even higher (if that's what it takes - listening to the low end of the mix is key - don't mix by numbers). Listen to some of those great 60's mixes and compare them with your mixes. Does your low end sound like theirs?

 

[rene-lemieux]

Yeah I was going to say that the equipment used on the "producing the sound to begin with" side of things is important. Flatwound strings are a big part of that. The bass itself is, of course, another big part of the picture.

I think another thing is to make sure your other tracks leave room at the low end for the bass. Don't necessarily be afraid to roll off the lows of a guitar up to 180hz or even higher (if that's what it takes - listening to the low end of the mix is key - don't mix by numbers). Listen to some of those great 60's mixes and compare them with your mixes. Does your low end sound like theirs?

Ok, I'm getting it, so put the bass where todays guitars might be, and then take the guitars a little higher? Great advice.

My set up is a Rickenbacker 4003 with mutes, through a Fender Bassman 59 recorded with a sony C38b, I think only flatwounds can complete this combo...

 

[TripleM]

Ok, I'm getting it, so put the bass where todays guitars might be, and then take the guitars a little higher? Great advice.

Not exactly. It can be down where basses usually are. Just keep the guitars out of their way. But rolling off the subs is probably a good idea.

My set up is a Rickenbacker 4003 with mutes, through a Fender Bassman 59 recorded with a sony C38b, I think only flatwounds can complete this combo...

I think flatwounds on that equipment would sound terrific. But you'll still need to work on dialing in the exact sound you want.

 

[XLR]

You need to become James Jamerson or Carol Kaye.

 

[rene-lemieux]

Ok, I fooled around a bit today, here's a little test I came up with, thought maybe you could let me know what you think.

Do you find the bass is big enough? And how do you think the recording sounds in general? It's only a demo, but I'm curious none the less, don't mind the amateur piano playing, haha, and the cymbals are a little edgy I know, I'm sorry.

Rene

 

[Seafroggys]

Yeah, a Rich with flatwounds through a Bassman is like the perfect combo for a late 60s/early 70s sound. McCartney began using his Rich 4001 in 1965 on Rubber Soul, and from then on is like my ideal bass tone. He used flats too.

 

[BushmasterM4]

A big ass Ampeg Stack and a couple nicely placed mics work well to. But yes in the vinyl era low freq. were cut. The needle would jump out of the groove if they didnt cut them.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

But yes in the vinyl era low freq. were cut. The needle would jump out of the groove if they didnt cut them.

That's true as far as it goes, but it's only half the story. Yes, an EQ curve (defined by RIAA standard) is applied during vinyl mastering in order to keep the size of the bass groves manageable, but the reverse EQ curve is applied by the phono preamp on playback in order to bring the bass back to the original levels before that EQ cut was made.

G.

 

[haymedic]

the best way to mimic what a recording does is use the same gear they used.

i believe a 16 channel rupert neve console is around 100,000 bucks or something. have fun! now... where can i find one of those old 2inch tape machines to go with my 'new' board?

s

 

[DrewPeterson7]

A big ass Ampeg Stack and a couple nicely placed mics work well to. But yes in the vinyl era low freq. were cut. The needle would jump out of the groove if they didnt cut them.

Though, a lot of those guys were using Marshall stacks, too, FWIW.

 

[rene-lemieux]

A big ass Ampeg Stack and a couple nicely placed mics work well to. But yes in the vinyl era low freq. were cut. The needle would jump out of the groove if they didnt cut them.

Though, a lot of those guys were using Marshall stacks, too, FWIW.

From what I know, the 60's was a time of small bass amps, ampeg yes, but stuff like b-15s from what I've read. Marshall Stacks? Ok, I'm not correcting you, but who was using those for bass? I'm only guessing here, although it may have been around in the 60's, isn't that something a little more definative of the 70's?

Also, SouthsideGlen, I just read your article on Phase, it really made it all clear to me, at the end I noticed from your bio that you've worked with the likes of the meters... Probably my largest musical influence is Producer Allen Toussaint and his 60's recordings, of whom the Meters were his studio band. I know that it's way after the fact that you worked with the guys, but did you happen to pick up anything from working with them, Toussaint prod techniques, equipment ect ect? I'd love to know, thanks.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Also, SouthsideGlen, I just read your article on Phase, it really made it all clear to me, at the end I noticed from your bio that you've worked with the likes of the meters... Probably my largest musical influence is Producer Allen Toussaint and his 60's recordings, of whom the Meters were his studio band. I know that it's way after the fact that you worked with the guys, but did you happen to pick up anything from working with them, Toussaint prod techniques, equipment ect ect? I'd love to know, thanks.

I unfortunately never actually worked with the Meters themselves *as a band*, just with some guys who have played for the Meters in the past, most notably Gordon Patriarca, an ex-Meters bass player whose been all around the place since then and has been based here in Chicago for many years now. His brother, Jim, is one of the principles that built the new home studio that I've been teasing about over in the Studio forum. I'm sure Gordie will probably be showing up for some bass duties as well somewhere along the way, as he has done session work and played on the road for the main owner of that studio quite a bit up to now.

I love Allen Toussaint myself; one of my favorite producers and song writers. I just saw him on Austin City Limits maybe about a month ago or so, and it reminded me of just how many great songs and productions he had a hand in over the years. I can't honestly say that I have picked up any specific technique from his work - that I can think of, anyway - but he most definitely is a big influence on me and my own style of producing/mixing. If someone told me that something I did reminded them of Allen Toussaint, I'd be happy! .

I'm glad you got some use out of the P&P applet on the website. I've got some more new stuff in the oven as we speak that'll be coming out soon. Keep your eyes open.

G.