Getting a punchier bottom end

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bendbones

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Hi,

I'm using JAMIN software (30 and 1200 band EQs, low, mid and high band compressions, limiter and maximiser) to "master" my home recordings. Whilst I seem to be able to add plenty of sheen and get really nice wide mixes, they seem to lack in punch at the bottom end. I don't know if I should be doing something or other different. Any advice or ideas?

Thanks!
 
Huh?

I'm not sure I follow, do you mean to say that the limiter and maximiser cancel each other out (or sorts....)? Cheers!
 
Honestly, if you really *need* multiband compression in the mastering stage the mix wasn't right to begin with.

Punchy bass begins with what you record and how you record it, and how the mix translates what you laid down. If you're waiting for the mastering stage to get a tight, punchy low end you are 2 steps too late....
 
what i am wondering is where the heck you got a 1200 band eq...
 
Hehe...Wow, 1200 bands!!!

Anyway, Cloneboy and others gave you good answers. I'll just add that, most of the time, trying to get more of something has more to do with cutting the frequencies you don't want rather than boosting the ones you do want.
 
Eq

Sorry, I made a mistake, its actually a 1023-band EQ, (I only remembered some huge number before off the top of my head). Its built in to JAMIN. Also built in is a 31-band EQ. Both EQs cover the same frequency spectrum but the 1023-band version is splined in to far narrower partitions allowing one to have more control in what is boosted / depleted.

On a different note - why is using multiband compression at the mastering stage a bad idea? Moreover, when is it a good idea to use multi-band compression, or more to the point, how should I use it?

Thanks :-)
 
The key is firstly obtaining this sound in the recording/mixing process.
Obviously you have done your best in these two departments and are asking for suggestion's as to how to tighten it up in the mastering stage.

Well its a bit tough to answer without hearing whats going on, but a few suggestions are
high pass filter, play around with a filter between 30hz and 100hz. (Beware).
Side-chain compression.
Honestly though if you can balance the tracks spectrum with eq first and do it well that's what id do first.
Then id play with the high pass filter,
you could then try a plug such as maxxbass from waves, again be careful.
Try side chain compression from 400hz and below.
Try the side-chain from 100 and slowly move it up i do this quite a bit and it works for me, but this is after i have the frequency balanced well.
If you try all this and its not sounding how you want then go back to the mix.
Or send it to me and ill see what i can do.
Cheers
 
Punchy low end

Hey there bendbones,

First off I'd heed the feedback you've received thusfar in this thread. I don't post a lot, but I do read through the forum every day and you are getting feedback from knowledgeable and experienced members. You sound like a novice. I'm probably not much further up the totem pole, so my advice might be a good start for you. Once you master some of the very simple basic things, you can move on to basic compression, sidechain compression and other means to enhance the sound.

Personally, my recordings started to show significant improvement in low end punch and definition when I started (I say started because there is a very long learning curve with this stuff and you never stop learning) to understand two simple concepts. Here you go:

I don't use synth's, so I'll try to help you out using a bass guitar holding down the low end.

- You will get a well defined and punchy low end, only if you record a well defined and punchy low end. Sounds like an obnoxious asshole statement doesn't it? It's not. Don't search for the magic button that defines your low and giving it amazing punch....it doesn't exist. It starts with using a good bass guitar. I'm not saying it is impossible to get a nice tight, punchy low end with a Mexican made Squire Bass, but it will be difficult for sure. So #1, a good quality instrument that records well. You may have to experiment with different basses because not all seemingly quality instruments record well. #2, Tone and other onboard instrument controls. You must get this correct. Don't try to put too much bass in your mixes (I think CloneBoy pointed this out as a common newbie mistake a while back....it's very good advice), there's only so much room in the proverbial phone booth. Too much low end will mask everything else in the mix and make it suck. You'll also waste approximately 2,432 CD-R's and tanks full of gas running ruff mixes that you think you've "nailed" out to your car for a listen only to find that they boom like a mo-fo (I'm relating real life experience). Make sure you're using new strings. #3, a well performed dynamic performance from the bassist. If the musician didn't play with punch and definition (ie: hitting the kicks and accents with the drummer) you won't be able to fix it in the mix. Capture a good performance.

- Panning and volume balance is critical. Don't clutter the middle of the mix with tracks that occupy similar sonic ranges or those that might conflict with the bass line and kick drum. This may involve cutting some low end off your guitars and panning off center to a point that resolves the conflict, yet still realistically reproduces your intended soundstage. I like to check my mixes in mono to identify frequency conflicts. If I identify muddiness, I mute every track except the low end instrumentation (assuming my low end instrumentation sounds good solo'd), then bring back in one track at a time until I find the offending track.

This should give you a start toward making really good progress in definition/punch using only a few basic fundamentals.

Cheers,

Bart
 
A shot at trying...

All,

Cheers for the fantastic advice; I have made an attempt at "mastering" one of my tracks, but still don't know if its that good. Here are before and after "mastering" results (mp3):
before
after
 
Well if you need real punch get a pultec

That mix sounds real stange to me. The bass has some low end in it. The kick has nothing. Get another sample for the drums. Over compression on the samples maybe????

Take down the fx on the vocal and bring him out more.

Get those guitars out of the center. They're cluttering everything.
 
More advice?

Well it was a shot at the least,.

I applied no compression to any of the drum sounds, althought some reverb to try and thicken them out (especially the hihat). Do you mean I should try and replace all of the drum samples or just the kick? When you say take down the fx on the vocal, what do you mean? EQ? Reverb? Highpass filter at 140Hz?

There are a number of guitar parts, the main crunch ones consist of two guitars panned slightly left and slightly right. Do you think it would benefit to pan these hard left and hard right?. Are you also referring to the clean guitar line?

Thanks, and awfully sorry for the thousand questions, but I want to learn this stuff
 
I would first replace the kick sound

Take down the reverb on the vocals and bring the vocals up

Try playing around with the guitars. Pan them hard then try other ways. Just make sure they balance each other out.
 
Improvment?

I have heeded your advice and replaced the kick sound; it seems a lot punchier and defined to me. I have also widened the guitar parts to free up the middle of the mix. Also, I've removed the reverb from the lead vocal and brought lead vocal up a bit. Also removed reverb from lead guitar solo to try and give it more presence in the mix.

Please tell me what you reckon, Thanks :-)

 
hey bend bones.

Try turning the guitars down. Vocals up about 3-5 db.
You need to try a cut of about between 200-750hz also at the 2k area.
It wouldnt hurt turning up the bass guitar and kick a few dbs also.
turn the snare up to about 3 db.

I dont mean 2 sepaerate cuts either at 200 and 750, i mean scoop it out.
Cheers
 
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Ok, will give that a go. Do you think there would be a benefit in turning up the backing vox as well as the lead vox

Thanks
Ben.
 
I agree with what's been said so far... also, after hearing your last clip, your issues are all at the mix stage (or possibly tracking, as I haven't heard the raw tracks)... but you need to get those parts right before you even worry about mastering....

Mixing 101
 
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i couldnt hear backing vocals so maybe yes.

But remember this might throw you of a bit but mixing isnt just about hearing everything evenly.
 
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