General Help for Acoustic Recording

Z

Zthom

New member
I need some help getting a good acoustic sound. I am quickly realizing that the problem may be due to the fact that I am placing mics, setting levels, and pressing record by myself. I am monitoring for mic placement using a pair of Sony MDR-V600 headphones. I have two Oktava MC012's, an MXL V69, and an AT2020. I record through an ART pro MPA into an HHB radius 3 stereo compressor into a Motu 828. For a DAW I am using Logic Express 7.2 running on a Macbook. For guitars I have a Martin CEO5 and an old Yamaha FG-110.

I've been unable to get a good sound using this setup and I'm not sure where the problem is occuring. I've messed around with some stereo techniques, switched mics around etc. The sound tends to be really boxy and I feel I'm spending a lot of time post tracking with EQ'ing. My room is not great but I've been able to get a fairly straight sound by placing the mics in the closet which is about 6 feet away from my recording gear (lots of back and forth to get levels)

Does anyone have any tips on how to get a good sound? Maybe someone has some experience recording a CEO-5? Thanks!
 
When I've tracked acoustic, I had the best sound putting my mics closer to the guitar. My last attempt was with 2 Nady mics, one a LDC and one a pencil type, and I simply laid them on a stand near the guitar. This is what I had...Dink

I should have panned the 2 mics further apart for a better stereo effect. This is 50% panning. The LDC was about 16" from the neck, and the smaller mic, about 12" from the soundhole. It needs some eq work to get rid of some lower mids, but I haven't worked on this for quite some time.

Hopefully this will help in sorting something out for you.
 
I usually track accoustic with one mic.

Either from the 12 fret, or over my shoulder.

Both give me nice results. :)
 
I don't have CEO5 but I do have, and record with an OM-18V and a OOO-28.

The gear you have looks to be fine and would be the last place I'd look to improve the quality of your recordings. In this order is the priorities with weighting that will determine the quality of your recording (I'm presuming you're a fantastic player with a good guitar setup and the guitar is in tune with reasonably fresh strings):

1 The room (65%)
2. Micing strategy and placement (25%)
3. Quality of hardware (mic, preamp, converters) (10%)

Technique and experience in the use of EQ, compression and reverb far more important than which plugs you choose to use.

The DAW platform matters not a whit.

I CANNOT over-emphasise the importance of recording in a good big room, or, if in a smaller room one that is fitted out with adequate acoustic treatment.

I CANNOT over-emphasise the importance of recording in a good big room, or, if in a smaller room one that is fitted out with adequate acoustic treatment.

(I repeated this sentence in case I wasn't clear enough.)

To your post: I'm not entirely certain what you mean by placing the mics "in the closet" but it doesn't fill me with optimism. What size (LXWXH) and what's in it?

Your guitar is a dreadnaught so I would be wary of boominess. What is you mic set up? I suggest you try ORTF about 18" from the guitar with the centre axis about pointing to the neck body joint. This will give you a good centre image with plenty of width.Avoid pointing a mic at the soundhole, at all costs. Don't compress or EQ in the way in, please.

I hope this helps - good luck!
Dave
 
Zthom,

First let me say that you started out with an excellent post describing in detail your setup and situation, excellent attention to detail. I have little doubt based upon the "feel' of your post that you'll wind up making an excellent recording sooner than later.

That said, though, it's still a bit tough to troubleshoot exactly for three reasons: 1) Exactly what your definition of "boxy" is, 2) Just what tipe of sound/feel you're aiming for with the recording, and 3) What your monitoring setup is on playback; i.e. what kind of playback environemt you're using to judge your records by.

Assuming a quality guitar and player and that all is tuned properly (and I have no reason to doubt those here), probably about ~90% of getting a good acoustic guitar sound is in mic placement. You mentioned that your best effort so far is in placing the mics in a closet. Does that mean that you're playing inthe closet as well, or that you're playing in the room and putting the mics in the closet?

If you are in the room and the mics are in the closet, then the question is, are you intentionally trying to record the natural reverb of the room? You said yourself that the room is "not great", so that may be hampering you a bit; the closet may be helping by reducing the number of side and rear reflections you're getting.

Have you tried closer miking?

There are probably a hundred different ways you can do this, but let me suggest a few starting positions that you can expiriment with and adjust as necessary:

- Set the Oktavas up as a matched pair, stereo coincident or near-coincident, perhaps 18" or so in front of the guitar, centered around fret 14.

- Set the Oktavas up again, but not coincident. Instead have one drill straight in on fret 12-14 and the other a foot or so away concentrated on the body and back of the strings behind the sound hole (though not right into the sound hole.)

- Try the AT in front into fret 12-14, and mount the MXL behind you and looking forward over your shoulder down towards the guitar a bit. That last position is a neat trick for picking up the guitar sound as it sounds to the player. Mix that with the front-loaded mic in a wet/dry mix to taste.

- any of a hundred variations on the above, including swapping mic positions and moving the mics an inch or two this way and that.

Get a good close sound with more guitar than room in it. If you want to add some ambience, do it in post with a good quality impulse reverb plug. While even the best reverb is no match for a great-sounding room, a decent reverb will usually be better than a not-so-good room.

Also, I'd personally keep the amount of compression during tracking to a minimum. One of the things that make a great acoustic guitar sound great is the frequency-based dynamics inherant in its sound. Compress it too much and your Martin will start to sound like a big ukulele :). Keep it as natural as feasable going in. If you want to compress it a bit to tighten it up in post, that's OK. But at least your'e leaving your options open that way.

HTH,

G.
 
ive had good to great results recording with pretty much the same set up that you are using, for me i found that it really helps to have someone else there as well. I found that when i was able to set the mics up and get a friend to play whilst i made adjustments in another room i was able to get close quite quickly.
I used one MXL2003 over my shoulder at about 6 foot, and one mxl 603 pointed at the 12 fret at 2 ft away. i would suggest you try this technique.
As stated earlier the room plays a big big factor in your sound. I find that a lively room sounds best with acoustics, one with wooded floors.
 
Thanks For the Help

I appreciate all the great advice everyone has provided. In terms of the closet: I place the mics in there to deaden the room sound. I sit outside the closet (about 18 inches) and this seems to reduce some of the ambient noise. As I stated before the room I record in is not great. It is a second bedroom about 16ft x 16ft. with two windows and no acoustic treatment. The floor is carpeted.

The Martin CEO-5 tends to get really boomy when close miced and if I move the mic 12-18 inches from the neck joint I tend to pick up not only the room, but the occasional car going by outside or the odd bird chirping or my wife watching TV in the other room. Moving the mic up the neck a bit does reduce the boom but sacrifices some of the mid-range which may account for the "boxy" sound I mentioned in my earlier posting.

I am curious to see if anyone has experimented with sound baffles. I found a website in which someone constructed baffles out of blankets and clotheslines. I do a lot of singer songwriter stuff and would like to minimize the room as much as possible in order to produce a more direct "in your face" (excuse the cliche recording description) sound.

I am monitoring through a pair of Roland DS-50a speakers although it's impossible for me to hear the guitar through them while I am placing the mics. Is it worthwhile to invest in a new pair of headphones for the purpose of placing the mics?

As per everyones advice I will cut the compressor during tracking.

Thanks
 
If your room dimensions are 16 x 16, then I'm afraid you've got a real problem with room modes (standing waves). A rectangular room is the worst possible scenario. There are only two real options:

1 Find another room.
2. Install acoustic treatment.

If you are in the US, you sould be able to procure some "Owen Corning 703" which is a semi-rigid mineral fibre that comes in 4'x2'x4" slabs. It's not expensive. (About $300 to do a room?) In the UK, where I am, the equivelent is Rockwool or Rocksil RS60 or RS45.

The very basic work is to cut these slabs in half to get 2'x2' squares and then cut each square diagonally to get two triangles. My room took 24 slabs (they came in packs of 4) which gave 96 triangles of the stuff. Now, these triangles are stacked in the corners of your room, long edge out, from floor to ceiling. Hey, presto - a recording studio.

It'll look untidy, but if you've got some DIY skills or a willing partner, you should be able to cover with breathable (that's important) material.

I'm sorry to be so bleak about your present recording space, but 40 years of recording acoustic guitars have taught me a couple of things.

Good luck!
Dave
 
Zthom said:
In terms of the closet: I place the mics in there to deaden the room sound. I sit outside the closet (about 18 inches) and this seems to reduce some of the ambient noise. As I stated before the room I record in is not great. It is a second bedroom about 16ft x 16ft. with two windows and no acoustic treatment. The floor is carpeted.
Click to expand...
Not sure what you mean by "boxy" but my general impression is you are putting your mics "in a box" (the closet) and then the guitar is facing "the box" when you record. I believe those Oktava's are cardioid patterns. My cardioid condensors always sound like my guitar is in a big tube. I have much better luck getting an open and spacious sound with hypercard or omni patterns. I'm in a small homade booth similar to your closet, but lined with sound board and blankets. I wonder if that "boxy" sound you hear might be some type of phase cancellation in the mics due to imperfect off axis response in a small "boxy" room??? Just guessing......

Zthom said:
The Martin CEO-5 tends to get really boomy when close miced and if I move the mic 12-18 inches from the neck joint I tend to pick up not only the room, but the occasional car going by outside or the odd bird chirping or my wife watching TV in the other room. Moving the mic up the neck a bit does reduce the boom but sacrifices some of the mid-range which may account for the "boxy" sound I mentioned in my earlier posting.
Click to expand...
This may be true with most acoustic guitars. I found that no matter where I sat or where I placed the mics, I always had a very audible "thumpy" sound in my acoustic tracks. Which makes sense in a way, because the lower freqs are always the most difficult to control when a guy is setting up room treatments. I used a cheap RTA program to show that the thumpy sound was actually focused at about 200hz, and I used a very narrow notch filter to cut that out. I dont know if that is just a peculiarity of my guitar, the mics, or the booth, but no matter what I did all of my acoustic tracks had that noise. (But I never, ever noticed it until I got rid of those Cerwin Vega Imperial Star Destroyer speakers and got new monitors instead!) I also added a modest rolloff below 40hz, and all of a sudden (it was actually several hours of test clips and retakes and moving mics, etc) my acoustic started sounding a lot more natural and realistic. I always get best results using a Mid-Side setup. The C414 is nice for that. But I cannot record acoustic guitar in my booth using cardioid pattern mics or it will sound like I'm playing in a runoff duct under the street.

Zthom said:
I am monitoring through a pair of Roland DS-50a speakers although it's impossible for me to hear the guitar through them while I am placing the mics. Is it worthwhile to invest in a new pair of headphones for the purpose of placing the mics?
Click to expand...
The best thing a solo guy can do is make test recordings. Try several different setups, single mic, dual mic, A-B, Mid-Side, X-Y, over the shoulder, close, far, on axis, off axis, in a corner, in a closet, in the shower (no, the water is not running! LOL!) etc.etc..... using every combination of mics and patterns you have, and record each one. Then come back the next day, turn on your monitors (dont use headphones) and compare all of the clips side by side, using your notes to remind you which clips go with which setups. Pick the 2 or 3 clips you like best, then use those setups. Tweak them a bit more to figure out how to get rid of thumpy sounds or boomy sounds, how to minimize finger squeak, etc....

Zthom said:
As per everyones advice I will cut the compressor during tracking.
Click to expand...
Wise choice. I used to compress also, but now I realize the acoustic guitar shouldn't need it at all. I was using that old "everything as hot and as close to 0 as possible" tactic, and since I gave that up, I have not needed compression for very many things. And the sound is better and the mixing is easier.
 
Thanks and One More Question

I Really appreciate all the feedback. I am looking forward to experimenting with the advice on the weekend. As a side note I was wondering if anyone could recommend some good reading material on home recording or recording in general. I have the "dummies" guide and have read through a number of the postings here. Any other books I should look at?

Thanks Again.

Zthom
 
"Modern Recording Techniques" by Huber & Runstein
"The Recording Engineer's Handbook" by Bobby Owsinski
"The Mixing Engineer's Handbook" also by Bobby Owsinski

G.
 
The sound tends to be really boxy
Click to expand...

placing the mics in the closet which is about 6 feet away
Click to expand...

bickity bam! $5 says the reflections within the closet are compromising the hell out of your tracks...i've recorded acoustic guitar in a completely untreated bedroom with good results, but made sure i was nowhere near any walls or other reflective surfaces, and had the mics as close as possible to the source
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top