R
RFR
Well-known member
Haha! 
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
No....not "Haha"...
...it's ShamWow!
We can't do this all day....
...it's ShamWow!
We can't do this all day....
R
RFR
Well-known member
Sure we can.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Vince said we can't do this all day...
R
RFR
Well-known member
Who's Vince? The only Vince I know is my cousin. But we just call him Vinnie.
But that being said, I think this thread has been derailed enough, I'm bowing out of this silliness.
But that being said, I think this thread has been derailed enough, I'm bowing out of this silliness.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Vince is the guy in the ShamWow video...watch it to the very end.
"cuz we can't do this all day..."
"cuz we can't do this all day..."
R
RFR
Well-known member
Watched it. Shit! Now I have gas for a sham wow! How can I live without one?
Hope I don't get shamed.
Hope I don't get shamed.
gecko zzed
Grumpy Mod
Having been an HR member since 2005, I can't say that I've noticed a particular bias towards favouring high end gear. There was a time, when Behri was on the nose, that people were saying "spend wisely, buy once", i.e. spend more on something decent, rather than throw money away on cheap, unreliable gear. I was not keen on that philosophy . . . if you are impoverished, sometimes cheap and nasty is all you can afford, and if you are starting out you need to be able to make affordable mistakes.
What I have noticed is an enduring emphasis on the importance of two things: room treatment and monitoring. This is not unreasonable; they are probably the two most critical elements of recording.
As for terms such as 'gear shaming' and 'echo chambers', they sound like SJW-speak, which triggers me and I need to find a safe place.
What I have noticed is an enduring emphasis on the importance of two things: room treatment and monitoring. This is not unreasonable; they are probably the two most critical elements of recording.
As for terms such as 'gear shaming' and 'echo chambers', they sound like SJW-speak, which triggers me and I need to find a safe place.
M
mixsit
Well-known member
My wife and I- both life long musicians, have sort of an ongoing standing joke when ever - usually I more often, buy something more esoteric/specialized or read ‘expensive’ than the real ‘utilitarian value’ could ever need. “Why? So ‘little Johnny’s’ guitar will sound better?” Accompanied by of course our ‘LOL roll of the eyes.
Now before panties get in wad -context- : >)
To me this ‘little johnny’.. could be most, damn near all/any of the musicians that come to me to record in my home. Or.. it could go for me.
Neither I -nor most of the musician I record, are stellar talents!
Now let’s get down to it.
How many of us are?
Now, to what degree, how much impact in the end, does it matter at all, if the limit of a piece or chain’ of gear’s tone capture finesse’ is at ‘90-95%’ of what it could be, or ‘100%’?
And who would say that is anywhere near as important as skill, in the recordist’ let alone skill of the player. The recording environment -is also huge. I know this well, enough to ache for a nice big room to ‘spread out in.
How about guitar amps? (I bet this should stir some sh**..
How many of us buy or have bought even multiple really fine amps? This is a little different ‘cause we’re looking for special tone(s).
But again, do I need a ‘$1500 rig or whatever? Reality (on this ‘utilitaria scale’) for you, or our listener’s lives is that most any competent three or four hundred’ buck amp would do the ‘job’ just fine.
'LOL roll of the eyes.. 'cause we both know the answer grins..
Now before panties get in wad -context- : >)
To me this ‘little johnny’.. could be most, damn near all/any of the musicians that come to me to record in my home. Or.. it could go for me.
Neither I -nor most of the musician I record, are stellar talents!
Now let’s get down to it.
How many of us are?
Now, to what degree, how much impact in the end, does it matter at all, if the limit of a piece or chain’ of gear’s tone capture finesse’ is at ‘90-95%’ of what it could be, or ‘100%’?
And who would say that is anywhere near as important as skill, in the recordist’ let alone skill of the player. The recording environment -is also huge. I know this well, enough to ache for a nice big room to ‘spread out in.
How about guitar amps? (I bet this should stir some sh**..
How many of us buy or have bought even multiple really fine amps? This is a little different ‘cause we’re looking for special tone(s).
But again, do I need a ‘$1500 rig or whatever? Reality (on this ‘utilitaria scale’) for you, or our listener’s lives is that most any competent three or four hundred’ buck amp would do the ‘job’ just fine.
'LOL roll of the eyes.. 'cause we both know the answer grins..
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Yes...and then once those two things are out of the way, the next two would be mics and pres, as they do all the sound capturing, unless DI and samples and all that non-air stuff.
Guilty.
While I do think good gear is important, and great gear can make a difference...I also use "budget" stuff too.
That said...I don't deny that I have endless GAS going on, and I love recording gear, guitars, amps...way more than I *need* but certainly all great to have, as they each can be the right/best choice in a given situation.
I've seen guys here talking about their very expensive Gibson LPs...and I never felt any shame because I bought many of my guitars for $300-$500...(but I make up for it with my amps
).We all love audio gear...and if budgets permitted, I think most would opt for lots of sweet goodies.
You only live once...unless you're James Bond.
Armistice
Son of Yoda
So I live in a largish two bedroom apartment. As you come in the door you go down a hall for about 4m. Bathroom on left, laundry on right. Ahead are the bedrooms, turn right and go another 3m and you're in the lounge. On the right of that 3m is a "media desk", on the left are storage cupboards. The lounge / dining / kitchen is about 7m x 6m, which is big for an apartment.
The media desk is my "studio" - works perfectly - PC, monitors and screens, room for some rack stuff. In the second bedroom I can get reasonable volume out of an amp without annoying anyone, and the size of the lounge works well for recording vocals and acoustics.
When I walked in here about 8 years ago with a real estate agent I knew that this was about as good as it was possible to get for an inner city Sydney apartment in terms of recording and I bought it then and there.
The compromises are that it's not ideal to have cupboards right at my back when mixing, and that I simply won't do anything with room treatment because I don't want to live in a recording studio environment with panels and gobos and bass traps and shit everywhere. So that's my choice.
I also do not have great "mix" ears.
What I did do when I went to PC recording from standalone machine a few years back, was buy an RME Fireface UCX and some nice Dynaudio monitors. The Fireface probably cost 3 or 4 times what a Focusrite with the same general functionality would have, and I did this after much research because I came to the conclusion (a) it apparently just worked and was ultra stable (b) it utlilised USB via the driver in a way that other interfaces didn't resulting in as close to zero latency as is possible (c) it supposedly had high quality transparent pres.
(a) and (b) were observably true. (c) I don't really know about because of aforementioned ungreat "mix" ears but I'm hoping I've bought some audio capability that perhaps benefits my recordings in ways that I personally can't measure, but others can. Which is why I'm a big user of the Clinic when I have a new toon.
Plus, the monitors, the additional big screen, the computer and the interface and headphone amp combined cost about the same as the AW4416 I bought 10 years earlier - just over $5k in uninflated dollars. Seemed like a bargain to me for sooooo much extra functionality and quality.
Not a gear snob at all, just trying to give myself the best chance at good recordings via having high enough end gear not to hobble myself without even knowing I was doing it.
The media desk is my "studio" - works perfectly - PC, monitors and screens, room for some rack stuff. In the second bedroom I can get reasonable volume out of an amp without annoying anyone, and the size of the lounge works well for recording vocals and acoustics.
When I walked in here about 8 years ago with a real estate agent I knew that this was about as good as it was possible to get for an inner city Sydney apartment in terms of recording and I bought it then and there.
The compromises are that it's not ideal to have cupboards right at my back when mixing, and that I simply won't do anything with room treatment because I don't want to live in a recording studio environment with panels and gobos and bass traps and shit everywhere. So that's my choice.
I also do not have great "mix" ears.
What I did do when I went to PC recording from standalone machine a few years back, was buy an RME Fireface UCX and some nice Dynaudio monitors. The Fireface probably cost 3 or 4 times what a Focusrite with the same general functionality would have, and I did this after much research because I came to the conclusion (a) it apparently just worked and was ultra stable (b) it utlilised USB via the driver in a way that other interfaces didn't resulting in as close to zero latency as is possible (c) it supposedly had high quality transparent pres.
(a) and (b) were observably true. (c) I don't really know about because of aforementioned ungreat "mix" ears but I'm hoping I've bought some audio capability that perhaps benefits my recordings in ways that I personally can't measure, but others can. Which is why I'm a big user of the Clinic when I have a new toon.
Plus, the monitors, the additional big screen, the computer and the interface and headphone amp combined cost about the same as the AW4416 I bought 10 years earlier - just over $5k in uninflated dollars. Seemed like a bargain to me for sooooo much extra functionality and quality.
Not a gear snob at all, just trying to give myself the best chance at good recordings via having high enough end gear not to hobble myself without even knowing I was doing it.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Which Dynaudio monitors..?
How do you like them overall..and what did you skip over or replace in favor of the Dynaudio monitors?
I've got my Mackie 824 monitors...and no complaints. They are well balanced with a big low end thanks to the large speakers. Some people say they are harsh in the highs...but I've never thought that, and I tend to be sensitive to harsh/spiky tones.
Anyway...I've simply been thinking about another set of monitors. I do have a pair of passive JBL monitors next to the Mackies...not looking at them right now, don't remember the model. I really don't use them and they are only there as an absolute backup in case one of the Mackies craps out...which I doubt will ever happen (I don't abuse them).
So I thought of losing the JBLs and trying something else..then if I like those better that the Mackies, I would maybe lose the Mackies or just keep both for A/B or whatever.
Anyway...I've considered a few brands/models...like the ADAM stuff...the 7x...but I've always been interest in Dynaudio monitors, as they tend to have good rep. I would like to stay with the larger speaker 7-8", so the low end is not rolled off too much. What I really need to do is get my ass into a music store and start by doing some comparisons there...but I'm not ready yet. At this point...I'm just gathering info/opinions so I can come up with a 2-3 brand/model selection.
How do you like them overall..and what did you skip over or replace in favor of the Dynaudio monitors?
I've got my Mackie 824 monitors...and no complaints. They are well balanced with a big low end thanks to the large speakers. Some people say they are harsh in the highs...but I've never thought that, and I tend to be sensitive to harsh/spiky tones.
Anyway...I've simply been thinking about another set of monitors. I do have a pair of passive JBL monitors next to the Mackies...not looking at them right now, don't remember the model. I really don't use them and they are only there as an absolute backup in case one of the Mackies craps out...which I doubt will ever happen (I don't abuse them).
So I thought of losing the JBLs and trying something else..then if I like those better that the Mackies, I would maybe lose the Mackies or just keep both for A/B or whatever.
Anyway...I've considered a few brands/models...like the ADAM stuff...the 7x...but I've always been interest in Dynaudio monitors, as they tend to have good rep. I would like to stay with the larger speaker 7-8", so the low end is not rolled off too much. What I really need to do is get my ass into a music store and start by doing some comparisons there...but I'm not ready yet. At this point...I'm just gathering info/opinions so I can come up with a 2-3 brand/model selection.
G
Greg_L
Banned
I have. Wanna see a pic? I've got a pile of Marshalls here that can stop an asteroid from crashing into the earth. Is it overkill? No fucking way. Because I enjoy the shit out of them. I don't just sit at home and record songs no one will ever hear. I mean, yeah, I do that too, but I go out and play live. Could I get by with a little budget amp? No, probably not, because I think they suck. I wouldn't be happy using some little practice amp. I know this because I've done it.
Armistice
Son of Yoda
I got the DBM50s. The front face is tilted up which I thought would help with the "not being able to get far enough away" issues I have due to the cupboards behind me - I'm 6'2" and there's no real decent way to put things on stands on the desk. 7 inch woofer - they replaced Behringer Truths that weren't actually too bad. I think the other main options at the time I looked at were some Mackies and some Adams - there's not a great deal on offer in a geographically acceptable location in Sydney - a single decent recording shop in the CBD where I work, and even that's now gone west, so I stuck with what they had in stock.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Yeah...same here. I went through my budget amp phase...and then got rid of everything and broke out the $$$ and bought a bunch of quality-serious amps. No regrets...not for a single red cent...and I may yet buy another amp or two...not because I need them...but because I enjoy them, and they're just more fun to record with.
On a different note....I use to use a 1/2" 16-track tape deck that I thought was DA SHIT when I got it. Loved it, recorded with it, etc. Then I took it up a couple of notches with a bigger/better format machine, and I instantly realized upon first use, that if it ever died on me, I would NOT go back to the other deck. I would repair or get another of the same that I now have...of course, it always comes back to budgets, and we do what we can when we can.
Yeah...with monitors, I like to at least go into a store and hear them against each other, then bring a pair home.
When I git the Mackies from a local music store...they said if I didn't like them, I could bring back for something else.
I listened to maybe 6 different sets, and I also had at least 3 sets that I tried in the studio.
The Mackies just sound the best at the time...and they ended up staying.
I was looking at the Dynaudio BM5 mkIII or maybe even more so, the BM12 mkIII.
The thing with Dynaudio that I'm curious about, is that I know they recently changed hands/manufacturing location..etc...and I've not yet seen any comments if their overall build quality has remained in tact.
Dynaudio always had a great rep for sound quality.
Farview
Well-known member
To answer the OP's question.... I really don't think that there is any real gear shaming going on. I think that sometimes people get defensive when they get told that their stated recording goals and their equipment list don't line up... (i.e. I want to make an album that sounds like Dark Side of the Moon and I have an iPad, garage band and a usb mic. How do I go about it?)
You can do a lot with very little, and since music is art, you can accomplish your art with any equipment you like. There are no rules. However, the moment you define what you want the outcome to be, you have limited yourself to using the equipment and techniques that will render that result. If that result requires equipment you don't have ('better' or not), your kind of screwed. You have two choices, get the equipment that will do what you need, or decide to do something that the equipment you have will accomplish.
I really think it's more about people with lower end equipment getting defensive than it is about anybody shaming them. We all started on the low end of the spectrum. There is no shame in that. However, delusional newbs thinking that $150 worth of equipment will get them million dollar studio results (if only the pros would tell them the 'secret') are not well tolerated. They will be told the truth, weather they like it or not.
You can do a lot with very little, and since music is art, you can accomplish your art with any equipment you like. There are no rules. However, the moment you define what you want the outcome to be, you have limited yourself to using the equipment and techniques that will render that result. If that result requires equipment you don't have ('better' or not), your kind of screwed. You have two choices, get the equipment that will do what you need, or decide to do something that the equipment you have will accomplish.
I really think it's more about people with lower end equipment getting defensive than it is about anybody shaming them. We all started on the low end of the spectrum. There is no shame in that. However, delusional newbs thinking that $150 worth of equipment will get them million dollar studio results (if only the pros would tell them the 'secret') are not well tolerated. They will be told the truth, weather they like it or not.
JimmyS1969
MOODerator
I don't talk down to anyone because of the price of their gear. I comes down to the quality of the music before anything. Hell, I have heard better product from many who have much less than I do.
I invest in my gear because I love having the tools and I can afford them. Just because I have them does not make me better than someone with less.
I will say that many seem to expect great results without putting in the time or money. Same as any endeavor. You get what you put in...
I invest in my gear because I love having the tools and I can afford them. Just because I have them does not make me better than someone with less.
I will say that many seem to expect great results without putting in the time or money. Same as any endeavor. You get what you put in...
ashcat_lt
Well-known member
I have no shame.
I've always been of the opinion that if it doesn't really deserve to be recorded, then it doesn't really matter what you use to record it, and if it does deserve to be recorded, then I'm just happy to capture it at all.
I tend to look for things that I can trust to capture those moments that deserve it without fucking it up too much. I don't really need or want my mic preamps to color the sound. I just want them to make the mic louder without adding too much noise. That turns out to be pretty cheap.
I completely understand the arguments in the other direction. Some folks do want that color or distortion from their preamps. There's nothing really wrong with that. If you actually know what you're going to want at mix time, and this can save you some dicking around later, great! I guess I don't believe that patching and repatching to audition mic pres and tweak knobs is either faster or even meaningfully better than dropping on a plugin, but whatever. It's your money, your time, your space, and your music.
I honestly don't believe that if I went to a commercial studio with all the fancy gear that my recordings would really sound any better. I mean, maybe a great-sounding live room, maybe if I brought in decent musicians, but the mic pres won't be the deciding factor.
But I do struggle just a bit getting other people to come to my studio. Like, I've been doing this for 27 years. I've got a good set of quality tools and a decent room and I know how to use them all. I've got a pretty badass mix room with which I am intimately familiar and I've got a pretty good ear. But I'm competing with either the kid that just spent $500 and is willing to do it for free or the dude with the big rack of fancy looking bullshit and locker full of shiny microphones and the big impressive board. Fuck, I've got a Ghost propped against the wall in my garage!
Then again, what have I got as far as a portfolio? Some 4-tracks of punk bands from back in high school and a whole lot of Lorenzo's Tractor. I can tell you that most of it sounds exactly the way I wanted it, and maybe that's not how I want you to sound, but... I have managed to trick a couple groups into it, though, and the word is getting around.
I've always been of the opinion that if it doesn't really deserve to be recorded, then it doesn't really matter what you use to record it, and if it does deserve to be recorded, then I'm just happy to capture it at all.
I tend to look for things that I can trust to capture those moments that deserve it without fucking it up too much. I don't really need or want my mic preamps to color the sound. I just want them to make the mic louder without adding too much noise. That turns out to be pretty cheap.
I completely understand the arguments in the other direction. Some folks do want that color or distortion from their preamps. There's nothing really wrong with that. If you actually know what you're going to want at mix time, and this can save you some dicking around later, great! I guess I don't believe that patching and repatching to audition mic pres and tweak knobs is either faster or even meaningfully better than dropping on a plugin, but whatever. It's your money, your time, your space, and your music.
I honestly don't believe that if I went to a commercial studio with all the fancy gear that my recordings would really sound any better. I mean, maybe a great-sounding live room, maybe if I brought in decent musicians, but the mic pres won't be the deciding factor.
But I do struggle just a bit getting other people to come to my studio. Like, I've been doing this for 27 years. I've got a good set of quality tools and a decent room and I know how to use them all. I've got a pretty badass mix room with which I am intimately familiar and I've got a pretty good ear. But I'm competing with either the kid that just spent $500 and is willing to do it for free or the dude with the big rack of fancy looking bullshit and locker full of shiny microphones and the big impressive board. Fuck, I've got a Ghost propped against the wall in my garage!
Then again, what have I got as far as a portfolio? Some 4-tracks of punk bands from back in high school and a whole lot of Lorenzo's Tractor. I can tell you that most of it sounds exactly the way I wanted it, and maybe that's not how I want you to sound, but... I have managed to trick a couple groups into it, though, and the word is getting around.
M
mixsit
Well-known member
And I get girls and boys from four to sixty four jumpin' and grinning with my Jerry cleans from a thirty watt LoneStar. Or any amp.Greg_L said:
But yeah, at sixty six, I wouldn't have just sprung for a second Mesa (and commissioned an experimental cab) if I wasn't still out having a ball singing and playing.
G
Greg_L
Banned
Lol. That's not exactly a budget friendly beginner's amp.