fustrating 24" bass drum

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DayOfVengeance

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im really not feeling the sound of my 24" bass drum. no matter how I tune it / dampen it, it just has that clicky/hard attack rock sound. I even have extra felt on my beater.

here's a playable clip
http://www.zshare.net/audio/60646294437b8de4/

I've posted asking about heads before and im still waiting for remo coated emperors so I hope that brings some sort of boom to it! I guess my question is, would I get a more boom sound if I don't cut a hole on the reso side. the reason im asking is that I bought a 22" ludwig accent custom bass drum, stock heads / no hole and this thing sound 20 times boomy'r then my 24" > more OOOMPH with medium attack, nice and smooth.

24" has pinstripe on batter/ coated ambass. on reso/ with a 5" hole.

please give some feedback on this, I'd love to keep my 24" because it matches my toms but I just can't any great sounds out of it!

anyone else have issues with this size?
 
If you want more boom, use less/no muffling, no hole, and tune the batter up until the click goes away, tune the front head for pitch and/or dampening. I don't think a double-ply head will help any. I can get my 20" quite boomy with a PS3.

Edit: you're not using a hard beater? Felt is what you want.
 
just want to make a note that I don't hate the sound but I'd like to know that I can get more tonal options. I'm many sample based but im now doing my own "breaks". just want to know I can get more options that's all.
 
ermghoti

would double ply help if was tunning really low?

it helped on my toms, i got a less click/slap tone.
 
I have a 24"x20" C&C maple kick that I Absolutely love! Every engineer I talk to for some reason doesn't like 24" bass drums, but I think it all comes down to your recording approach....

I use a Remo Powerstoke 3 for the batter side (with a Falam Slam Pad, made of Kevlar), a standard 1 ply stock head with a hole... I have a little 8"x4" piece of studio foam in it.

I tuned it so when you push down in the center of the head, you just barely get rid of the ripples around the edges...

The beater is a stock DW 5000, using the hard side of the beater.

When I EQ the kick, I scoop the mids down, and find that nice click around the 2100k to bring up a little bit, also bringing a little of the 50k up to punch those subs a bit...


Here's a song I JUST did with the 24" kick....
http://soundclick.com/share?songid=7572119

I used a Beta 52 for the kick....

I hope this helps you out!


-Mike
 
DayOfVengeance said:
ermghoti

would double ply help if was tunning really low?

it helped on my toms, i got a less click/slap tone.
Click to expand...

I haven't noticed that 2-ply gives less stick attack (I have Emperors on all my toms, and go back and forth on a couple of snares), but you're getting different results. A 2-ply absolutely will give less volume, and slow response is already a potential negative with a larger drum, with all the extra air/head/shell to get moving. I don't think there will be an advantage to super-loose tuning anyway, that drum's fundamental should be plenty deep.
First, give the batter head'lugs s all an 1/8th turn or so, repeat until the click is under control, then fiddle with the front a little. Throw a towel in there if there's too much ringing. If it doesn't work, you haven't lost anything.
 
DayOfVengeance said:
im really not feeling the sound of my 24" bass drum. no matter how I tune it / dampen it, it just has that clicky/hard attack rock sound. I even have extra felt on my beater.

here's a playable clip
http://www.zshare.net/audio/60646294437b8de4/

I've posted asking about heads before and im still waiting for remo coated emperors so I hope that brings some sort of boom to it! I guess my question is, would I get a more boom sound if I don't cut a hole on the reso side. the reason im asking is that I bought a 22" ludwig accent custom bass drum, stock heads / no hole and this thing sound 20 times boomy'r then my 24" > more OOOMPH with medium attack, nice and smooth.

24" has pinstripe on batter/ coated ambass. on reso/ with a 5" hole.

please give some feedback on this, I'd love to keep my 24" because it matches my toms but I just can't any great sounds out of it!

anyone else have issues with this size?
Click to expand...

does the drum sound the way you want in the room, just not on tape? if you're only having problems with the recorded sound, i'm thinking mic selection/placement may be your problem. just a thought.
 
dross, that would be a maybe. i thought i could of eq'd it but since it was recorded with one mic it just wasn't possible. im using a edirol r-9hr, i have another condenser mic but i doubt that's good for a kick.

im going to tune it tighter tonight and see how it goes, the hole if the front might be my problem as i love the sound of my 22" without dampening, im kinda after a nice open sound.

cheers for the other info guys, much love!
 
DayOfVengeance said:
dross, that would be a maybe. i thought i could of eq'd it but since it was recorded with one mic it just wasn't possible. im using a edirol r-9hr, i have another condenser mic but i doubt that's good for a kick.

im going to tune it tighter tonight and see how it goes, the hole if the front might be my problem as i love the sound of my 22" without dampening, im kinda after a nice open sound.

cheers for the other info guys, much love!
Click to expand...

were you using the internal mic on the edirol??? if so, that's totally you're problem. small diaphragms simply don't pick up low frequencies very well simply because of the physical size of a low freq sound wave. you wouldn't be able to eq it regardless, just because you can't add something that isn't there to begin with. a million dB times 0 equals 0 dB. if the mic doesn't capture anything significant in the bass range, your kick is thin and clicky regardless of how many dB of xxxHz you "add."


can you hook up an external mic to that recorder? if so, i highly recommend you get yourself a large diaphragm dynamic that's engineered to capture kick drums/bass cabinets. there are cheap ones out there like the cad kbm-412, akg d550, etc. they're not as good as the go-to kick mics like a d112 or d6, but they'll certainly perform better than pretty much any budget condenser or those edirol onboard electret capsules.

good luck man! :)
 
drossfile said:
small diaphragms simply don't pick up low frequencies very well simply because of the physical size of a low freq sound wave.
Click to expand...

Isn't that a misconception? Harvey's "big thread" at the top of the mic forum says that diaphragm size has nothing to do with whether a mic can pick up low frequencies.
 
PhilGood said:
Isn't that a misconception? Harvey's "big thread" at the top of the mic forum says that diaphragm size has nothing to do with whether a mic can pick up low frequencies.
Click to expand...

idk, i'm pretty sure i read that in "total recording" by dave moulton. i suppose there's a lot of conflicting info out there, and i don't wanna contradict harvey...:confused:

and i don't think it's so much a matter of being able to pick them up, i think it's the relative effectiveness of that translation. the mic capsules on that edirol are extremely small--well under 1/2" if i'm not mistaken, which would make it that much more difficult to reproduce low freqs.

again, i could be wrong. i'm no expert, but this is my understanding of it. you've got me second-guessing myself now...:(
 
To the best of my knowledge, a small diapraghm mic has a smaller moving mass, and will be more accurate as a result. Large diapragms impart more character. This is, of course, relative, considering body design, tubes, transformers, underware, whatever.

Anyway, small vrs large diaphragm has no impact on a mic's ability to capture lows.
 
i was having problems recording the bass drum in the past for other applications (recording single hits for a MPC).

should i be buying some mics or is the edirol fine? i think i have the mic placement right, so would i get a huge difference in sound if i bought some mics, even if im recording in mono? im not a professional at this, i just enjoy playing & recording with the occasional tape to sell and thats it.
 
It's entirely possible the Edirol's mic is overloading, I can't find published SPL handling specs though. If you're using a hand-held recorder for self-analysis and fun, I'd hesitate to tell you to buy stuff. If the Edirol will record with it's internal mics, and the external mic simultaneously, you could pick up one of the Usual Suspect kick mics (B52/D112/D6/ATM25/RE20/421), place the Edirol overhead, 3' or so over the snare. Otherwise, just the Edirol, either over the snare, or about 3' in front of the kit at about tom level are your best bets.
 
ermghoti said:
Anyway, small vrs large diaphragm has no impact on a mic's ability to capture lows.
Click to expand...

so i went back and re-read some of the sticky, and it's pretty clearly stated that you and phil are absolutely right on this point.

what i don't get is, if a small diaphragm will capture low freqs every bit as well, and even more accurately, than an LD, then why is every single kick drum mic on the market a large diaphragm dynamic? why not a SDD? :confused:
 
drossfile said:
so i went back and re-read some of the sticky, and it's pretty clearly stated that you and phil are absolutely right on this point.

what i don't get is, if a small diaphragm will capture low freqs every bit as well, and even more accurately, than an LD, then why is every single kick drum mic on the market a large diaphragm dynamic? why not a SDD? :confused:
Click to expand...

Funny, I don't think I have a great answer for that. Maybe the larger moving mass is less susceptible to overload? The character imparted is more important than accuracy? Sound guys feel like a girly man putting a tniy pecil mic on a kick drum?
 
ermghoti said:
Funny, I don't think I have a great answer for that. Maybe the larger moving mass is less susceptible to overload? The character imparted is more important than accuracy? Sound guys feel like a girly man putting a tniy pecil mic on a kick drum?
Click to expand...

lol, and let me throw you a REAL curveball on this issue: what about subkicks? how do those fit into the "size doesn't matter" scheme? :eek:
 
ermgoti, nothing is peaking if thats what you meant by overload.

i think it would be great if i could use both the internal/external together but unfortunately its one or the other.

if i was to buy a mic kit or 2 mics, what do you guys run it through? would a usb device with XLR inputs on it work? or would i be better off going through a mixer?
 
DayOfVengeance said:
ermgoti, nothing is peaking if thats what you meant by overload.

i think it would be great if i could use both the internal/external together but unfortunately its one or the other.

if i was to buy a mic kit or 2 mics, what do you guys run it through? would a usb device with XLR inputs on it work? or would i be better off going through a mixer?
Click to expand...

overloading a mic isn't the same as peaking. if the sound source is too loud for the mic's diaphragm or electronics to handle, the mic itself will distort, so while you're not clipping the recorder, you are recording a signal that was already distorted when it arrived at the channel input, if that makes sense.

i took a brief gander at that unit online, and they're calling the 1/8" input a "mic" input, so the only thing you should need is an xlr-to-1/8"trs adapter. just keep in mind that it doesn't have phantom power, so if you want to use a condenser you'll have to get one that's powered by an internal battery like the akg c1000s.
 
drossfile said:
i took a brief gander at that unit online, and they're calling the 1/8" input a "mic" input, so the only thing you should need is an xlr-to-1/8"trs adapter. just keep in mind that it doesn't have phantom power, so if you want to use a condenser you'll have to get one that's powered by an internal battery like the akg c1000s.
Click to expand...

Not quite--that input is a stereo input, even on mic mode. It's designed specifically for stereo electret condenser mics that are terminated in a miniplug. Therefore, it won't work very well to use an XLR-miniplug cable*

The Edirol's internal mics overload easily, and are wildly inappropriate for close-micing a kick.


*You could connect a dynamic mic, or something like the C1000, but you'd get signals of opposite polarity on right and left channels. If you were clever enough to invert the polarity of the right channel and sum to mono, you'd have a balanced input! If you aren't that clever, you'd have a signal that would disappear (other than noise) if summed to mono . . .
 
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