From the singer/songwriter perspective?

D

DAS19

New member
How do you get your full band sound out of your simple acoustic guitar chord progression. I find its hard if you are a solo act bringing in people to play or playing everything yourself to compose every part. The only way that works for me is tracking a very rough demo adding the instrument as I go not worrying about quality to just get a feel for where and how the song should go.


I find this is like the only way I can achieve hearing what the final product might sound like. Sure I hear it in my head but I need to really hear it. How do all you other singer/songwriters help to fill out your sound. Do you bring in other people and rehearse with them before recording. Do they write the parts or do you?
 
I write the songs, but when I record I bring in a drummer and bass player (the same two guys always - really good friends). They write their own parts after they hear the song. We record drums first, then the bass records to a scratch track of vox/guitar and drums.

From what it sounds like, what you're doing is just what I would do, if I was doing it alone. Sounds like that would be the way to go.
 
It can be very hard to come up with good parts on multiple instruments. As an example, I'm a very good drummer and a decent keyboard player - and I can actually come up with some decent parts on those instruments. I'm also a fairly good guitar player (meaning I can play solid rhythem and have a few believable sounding riffs for lead parts)........but, I don't "think" like a guitar player - thus, I often can't come up with good parts. Now, if I have a guitar player come in and record a part that's "perfect" for the song, I can learn that part and reproduce that part - but I would not have created that part.

I think anyone who writes/records needs to have outside resources from time to time for when they simply don't hear the right part.
 
for the last two years i've been doing everything myself. and i'm having pretty good results. the thing about creating parts for each song, is having a vision of what it should sound like. when i create a song, i often hear the finished product in my head before i ever record the first word. i track the basic rhythm to a beat box, then i add a vocal guide track, then i program a drum line that fits it, then a bass line. then i redo the guitar and vocals and finally add lead. at that point i evaluate the song and see if it sounds like my vision of it, or if it sounds better or worse if it isn't like the vision. if it doesn't sound good enough for my liking, i'll see what i can change to make it better. maybe the rhythm guitar needs to be changed maybe the bass line doesn't follow the drums closely enough. lot's of variables.

and sometimes i don't have a vision. all i have is a rhythm guitar part and a melody and lyrics. then i'll record those two parts to a beat box and tinker on the drums and bass to come up with parts. once i have parts i record them all and evaluate as before.

i think the singer/songwriter/home recorder has to be much more of an all around musician than just someone who plays an instrument in a cover band. but i'm not talking a perfect technical musician, i'm talking about having a feel for each instrument, for each song. the ability to develop a song one part at a time, the ability to have a vision of what the song should sound like when you're done.

just my two cents.
 
I think the point about the writer having a vision of the whole song deserves more discussion. I've talk to a lot of songwriters and while there are no absolutes - writers seem to fall into two general categories.

Those that hear the whole song/arrangement.....and those that don't.

Taking that further, it seems writers who come at it from the musical standpoint (music first - or music and lyrics together) tend to be perhaps stronger musicians (ie: a musician first and a writer second) - thus they may have a better understanding of the role of each instrument in a song arrangement and perhaps better skills to play the parts they hear.

Writers who come at it primarily as a lyricist and who have limited musical skills or who perhaps have some basic skills on a given instrument tend to have a more difficult time hearing the whole song - and even if they can hear the whole song, they may not be able to perform the parts they hear.

In any case, each of us as writers or as musicians have some limitations (in my case I'm a very good drummer and pretty good keyboard player - but only a fair guitarist and a limited vocalist). While we can all try to improve, we also have to recognize and acknowledge those limitations, play to our strenghs and when needed turn to others to cover our weaknesses.

When I write, the stuff I don't plan to have published, I play all the parts and accept that some parts won't be as strong, creative or well played as other parts. However, when I submit songs to be published, I bring in outside talent (always a singer and sometimes a guitarist) to make certain that all the parts enhance the song as best as possible. As much money and time as we commit to our talent and our recording equipment, sometimes the most wisely spent dollar.....is spent on outside talent.
 
to further the discussion, i have a couple of things to add to what mikeh said.

my biggest weakness is vocals. i'm mainly a guitarist/songwriter. i can sing well enough to get the idea across but i'm no great singer. and i'm no great melodist either. the fact that i'm no great melodist limits my abilities. but since i'm the one writing the songs, i have to cope with what i have. BUT, i have recently found a singer/songwriter who IS a pretty good melodist, though he's weak in some aspects of his playing. i'm going to use him, (and he me) to compensate for my weaknesses. thus my vision of the songs we write will be slower to come, and i'll have to wait until there's a melody for each part before completing my vision. but the melodies in the songs will be better and thus the songs will be better.

and even when i write something on my own, i try to get someone who sings well to sing it. i sent my old dp 01 fx to my sister in quebec so she can record vocals for me on my stuff. so i have someone else covering a weakness there , or will once she's got her internet hooked up.

but don't forget, that once certain variables, (such as melody of each part of a song,) are filled in, i will still have a vision of what the song will sound like. it will just take me a bit longer to get to that point.
 
I usually hear the whole song in my head, harmonies and all, even signature licks, but not the solos.
I am a songwriter first, bass player second and I can play pretty good acoustic guitar and do a passable job on lead vocal, although I am a much better harmony singer than a lead singer.
I have been doing home recordings since the late '70s, back when it was Teac 3340s and then in Portastudios and Korg drum machines in the '80s.
I used to play and sing everything myself including the keyboards, drum machine programming and lead guitar, but it took me hours to work up a decent sounding lead and sometimes entire evenings to program one song on the drums. I just don't have that kind of time anymore and even if I did, to me it's not worth the trouble.
Although I hear the whole song in my head, I have learned that if I let in outside ideas of friends who are better on their instruments than I am, I end up with a much better sounding recording. So now when I have a new song, I record a really quick scratch vocal and acoustic guitar to a click track. Then I add a scratch bass track and some really simple drum loops. I let the guitar player friend listen to it and come up with the signature lick and solos (always a LOT better than mine.) Sometimes I even swallow my pride and let him rerecord my finished acoustic rhythm guitar tracks; he's just a better guitar player. The drummer I like to use is so intuitive that sometimes it is better just to give him a vocal/guitar demo without any preconceived notion of what the drums should be doing and let him come up with his own ideas. He always plays to the song and comes up with exactly what it calls for.
For some of these songs which are being pitched as demos to Nashville, I am going to use another friend who really is a singer. He captures the emotion really well and he just has a much better voice than I do.
It is hard for me to let go of the Todd Rundgren "do it all" syndrome, but I am finally being honest with myself. I am not Rundgren or McCartney or anywhere near that caliber of talent. God gifted me with the ability to write a good song, play decent bass and sing harmony and I have decided to play to my strengths and bring in others to excel at what I can only do a mediocre job of. For those of you who CAN do it all, I salute you...... but you piss me off!!!! :p

bilco
 
For yonks I had a hard time with guitar arrangements - everything would be strummed the same but with a different tone.
After a started learning 'cello I had to REALLY thing outside that square 4/4 strum because I don't play 'cello well enough or fast enough to keep up with the rhythm guitar. After some time I started to get the hang of writing 'cello lines that a) didn't track the rhythm guitar strum & didn't duplicate the bass line (THAT was difficult) with varying degrees of success.
I have a collaborator who writes the melody and sax/recorder/flute parts as well as suggesting 'cello lines. I've had enormous luck in collaborating over 4 songs with a fabulous drummer online as well as an excellent guitarist or two for a pair of tracks & that has taken a load off my shoulders as well as providing a degree of musicianship that was sorely lacking (my how the sparkle of musicianship can lift a track).
I also found a couple of tricks that forced me to arrange differently - doing a tremelo guitar track (even though I don't usually end up using it) forces me to leave space around what that does - I can then re record that part without the trem but benefit from the lack of crowding that the part now offers.
in the end though it's amateur me with a few ideas, occasionally some helpful friends and some songs that leave me with a sense of achievement.
 
For yonks I had a hard time with guitar arrangements - everything would be strummed the same but with a different tone.
After a started learning 'cello I had to REALLY think outside that square 4/4 strum because I don't play 'cello well enough or fast enough to keep up with the rhythm guitar. After some time I started to get the hang of writing 'cello lines that a) didn't track the rhythm guitar strum & didn't duplicate the bass line (THAT was difficult) with varying degrees of success.
I have a collaborator who writes the melody and sax/recorder/flute parts as well as suggesting 'cello lines. I've had enormous luck in collaborating over 4 songs with a fabulous drummer online as well as an excellent guitarist or two for a pair of tracks & that has taken a load off my shoulders as well as providing a degree of musicianship that was sorely lacking (my how the sparkle of musicianship can lift a track).
I also found a couple of tricks that forced me to arrange differently - doing a tremelo guitar track (even though I don't usually end up using it) forces me to leave space around what that does - I can then re record that part without the trem but benefit from the lack of crowding that the part now offers.
in the end though it's amateur me with a few ideas, occasionally some helpful friends and some songs that leave me with a sense of achievement.
 
Seems like this thread has turned out to be pretty interesting. Ever songwriter I guess has their own way of going about everything. I agree with what everyone is saying. You can write a song on your main instrument but when it comes out to filing in the other instruments its harder to play as well as you may want. This is where outside talent can come in handy.

Its been hard for me lately to record something because I want to finish the song before touching the record button. This hasnt been working for me I think I just need to lay down a shit track and not worry about quality and bang out my idea. Everyone has there own way and mikeh was talking about people not being as strong if they dont see the vision i dont know how true that is considering everyone has their own way of doing things.
 
DAS19 said:
Seems like this thread has turned out to be pretty interesting. Ever songwriter I guess has their own way of going about everything. I agree with what everyone is saying. You can write a song on your main instrument but when it comes out to filing in the other instruments its harder to play as well as you may want. This is where outside talent can come in handy.
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Bob Dylan, Steve Earle, John Prine, Lyle Lovett, and countless others have done well with their solo recordings. I think that if you write great songs they will hold up in almost any genre, mix, or venue. I often fall into the same trap. Namely, I spend too much time recording, tracking, and mixing. If I were to spend the same amount of time JUST writing and rewriting my material would doubtlessly turn out better. (Even though it would bore me to tears.)
 
i just make it all up with a lot of trial and error.

sometimes i'll midi it all out.

i basically lay down the guitar part or whatever...and then just play my whatever instrument along with it until i have something to go off of.

i try not to play too heavily into one rhythm. so maybe all of the glockenspiel parts are in one rhythm...the guitar in another..then the strings will play off of those.

it's nice to have the strings to have different rhythms to go through the chords..

like...one part will do half's, 2 more will do 1/8's, and then some other ones will be melodic.

that's a pretty simple arrangement...but you get the idea
 
I always have the main body in my head and just do a rough Guitar track to kind of map the song out. The only parts that come spontaneously whlie doing this are solos and breaks here and there, but usually I know before what I want to do. But I think everybody's got his own system, so it's all about what works best for you.
 
MikeH is right - if you hear all the parts in your head, its just a matter of getting them down in a recording. Sometimes, you have to listen to parts over and over and try certain experimental things to fully appreciate what may or may not work in the song.

That's the beauty of recording. Even if you aren't the best player on a particular instrument, you can work your way through the part when you are recording (versus playing live).
 
DAS19 said:
How do you get your full band sound out of your simple acoustic guitar chord progression. I find its hard if you are a solo act bringing in people to play or playing everything yourself to compose every part. The only way that works for me is tracking a very rough demo adding the instrument as I go not worrying about quality to just get a feel for where and how the song should go.


I find this is like the only way I can achieve hearing what the final product might sound like. Sure I hear it in my head but I need to really hear it. How do all you other singer/songwriters help to fill out your sound. Do you bring in other people and rehearse with them before recording. Do they write the parts or do you?
Click to expand...

I do it all myself. Sometimes it works out okay, and sometimes I lack diverse perspective. You can get too close to a song and smother it and steal the dynamics. Trial and error works for most stuff. As far as hearing the final sound, I think you should always have that in mind. You can hear what others can only imagine.

If I invite a player into my studio, I usually just back out the piece that he or she is replacing and it works out fine. Like, I suck at lead guitar, so I do it wrong first, and then get a friend to bail me out. HTH
 
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