Fret sizes.

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Andy Assumpcao

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Well the other day I was in my local music store playin some guitars. I am looking to buy a standard strat so I can get some of those good single coil noises. But something I noticed about the strats down at the music store is that the frets seemed really small and close together. I normally play my epi les paul so the strat felt quite different. Than when I got home I decided to do some research on the standard strat and learned that it had vintage frets. So my question would be: What is the difference in the size of the fret? Like jumbo, medium-jumbo, vintage, etc. This is just something that kinda confuses me. Thanks in advance.
 
There are TONS of different fret wires. I have about a five foot wide section of wall about ten feet high which has nothing but coils of Martin Fret wire, which all has pretty close to the same size bead, but with different sized tangs. And then I have close to thirty other different styles of fret wire. You will excuse me if I don't go real in depth on each one, but instead give some generalities. And always remember that YMMV.

For MOST players, tall frets help them play faster, as your fingers don't touch the fingerboard, which means less friction. You also can use less pressure when you play, again because you are not touching the fingerboard, so it is easier to make the string hit the fret cleanly. Tall frets make bending and vibrato easier, again because you are not touching the fingerboard. However, until you learn what your touch needs to be on them, tall frets can cause intonation problems and can result in hand injuries (if you are used to feeling the fingerboard when you play, and you keep pushing until you feel it, you are bending the string, and pushing too damn hard. Very bad for your hands.) Also, tall frets can feel "bumpy," and make slides almost "quantized" sounding, if you get my drift.

Shorter frets are much more forgiving, and they don't have the bumpiness, but they do require more pressure to get the note to fret cleanly. But if you like to feel the fingerboard, you want short frets. Intonation is usually easier, as you are less likely to over stretch the string when you fret.

Narrow frets have no use that I can see except the feel. Also, if the fret is too wide, it is hard to dress it to a reasonable point contact, which is bad for intonation, but that is only ever an issue on short frets. Narrow frets also emphasize the whole bumpiness thing. I don't get the appeal of tall and narrow, but whatever, some guys like them.

Wide frets make a big difference in reducing the bumpiness. On shorter frets, they probably cause a little intonation problems, but then there are not a lot of short wide frets being used (the Gibson Fretless Wonders being an exception). Those Fretless Wonders have just ridiculously low and wide frets, and I don't really get how anyone can play them, but whatever.

Most of the really great players I know like really big frets, both tall and wide. Among those guys, Dunlop 6100 is really popular, and that stuff is HUGE. Too big for me. I like Dunlop 6150 more than anything, myself. 6150 is probably the most popular fret wire for electric guitars, though I don't know many guys who like it for acoustics (a few though, and one of the best acoustic players I know gets all his guitar refreted with 6100 - and his guitars are all old and expensive). And of course, one of our favorite customers, both as a player and a guy, HATES big frets. He talked with all these other guys who convinced him to get big frets on one of his guitars (a $350-400 job) and came back two days later to get it refreted again he hated it so much, for another $350-400. As I said, YMMV.

One other thing to keep in mind; I don't for a second buy the idea that small frets wear faster, but there is more material in big frets, so you can get more fret dresses out of big frets than you can with small frets. This is a issue to bear in mind as a dress is $125-150 and a refret is $350-500 (unless you are a one of these dips who want to keep your Gibson binding nibs, in which case you are looking at least $800 because of all the extra work involved).

And then there is the material issue. For a long time frets were either brass (in which case your guitar was really fucking cheap), or either 15% or 18% Nickel-silver (which has no silver in it at all). 18% is harder, and is usually used for all steel string guitar frets, with 15% being primarily used for nylon strings and mandolins, as it is difficult to get the harder 18% as small as mando frets usually are). In recent years, however, there has been some move towards stainless steel frets. This started in popular conciseness with the Parker Fly's, and now there is a limited number of sizes of fret wire available in stainless. Basically, it is available in Martin sized wire and 6150 sized wire. Expect an upcharge on the labor of at least $100-150 for this stuff, as it is extremely hard, which means it does not like to seat very well and it is very time consuming to file. Also, we can't use our normal fret cutting tools with stainless wire because it chips the cutting edges, which means we need to carefully file it flush, which sucks.

All the bad points aside, though, stainless wire IS much harder, so it lasts a lot longer. I have customers who get complete refrets once a year (not because they couldn't get a fret dress, but because they do not like the feel of the shorter frets. They want their frets as tall as possible). Most players don't need fret work that often, even with nickel silver wire. For these guys, they play so much that they notice and are bothered by any change, no matter how small. These are the guy who we are pushing towards stainless frets, if we can get a size they like. So far, only a couple have taken us up on it, but those who have tried them have given us positive feedback, so I think stainless may well be here to stay. While the business man in me doesn't like the idea (fret dresses and refrets are high dollar labor jobs that make me a good deal of money), my right shoulder (and the right shoulder of all the guys who work in our shop) LOVES the idea of doing fewer fret dresses. It is REALLY hard work, and has caused at least a few luthiers to get tendonitis or carpal tunnel. This is somewhat offset, however, by the difficulty of doing the work on stainless frets.

Fret wire is a strange thing. I know amazing players who couldn't care less. But I also know amazing players who are fanatical about their frets. It goes both ways. I will say this, though. Fret wire is one of the only equipment things that I think players become MORE worried about the better they become. Most of the really great players who come into the shop will tell you it doesn't really matter what guitar or amp they play through. They have a sound in their head, and they will use whatever gear is at their disposal to get that sound. But where amateurs almost never worry about what kind of fret wire is on their guitars, and journeymen (for lack of a better term) will only occasionally get really anal about it, it is the great players who know exactly which wire they want, and who can't stand fret dresses. My guess is it is just that they spend more time playing, so they notice it more.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
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That's an excellent description of fretwire issues by Light.

I know the OP asked about elec gtr but I've noticed w/nylon players that fret height preference is somewhat related to left hand fingertip characteristics... What I mean is that some players have hard unyielding callouses but others, like me, have thick but relatively soft pads on the left fingertips (even though I spend hours each day playing). And of course there's a whole spectrum in between. I prefer frets with high crowns as my figertips can press the strings w/o having to overpress against the ebony fingerboard, yet I can still feel the fingerboard a bit, whereas another gtrist w/harder fingertips might feel like he was walking on stilts with the left hand using frets that tall.

BTW the Luthiers Mercantile site has a good page on fret dimensions and common applications for anybody who's interested in that.

Tim
 
Just a side note about the stainless steel, I've used them ( on my parker) for five years and they still look and feel brand new.
 
Light said:
You will excuse me if I don't go real in depth on each one, but instead give some generalities.

Holy cow, Light, if that ain't in depth I don't know what is.

I have a quick question that will seem stupid to you, but forgive me for I am a bass player by nature, and frets are optional.

What's a fret dress?
 
ez_willis said:
What's a fret dress?


Most of the time fret wear is some small divots in the fret, which causes the string to rattle against the next fret (or one of the next frets). Occasionally, with guys who bend a lot, the tops of the frets get really flat, which can also cause some rattling if the wear is not even, and will also cause intonation problems. What you want with a fret is a nice, consistant height; and a nice, round top which gives a good point contact.

There are two basic ways of taking care of fret wear; a refret and a fret dress. So, when frets wear, what we can do is use a big flat file to get them all to the same level, and then use another file to re-round (or, as we call it, recrown) the tops of the frets. It is a VERY high skill job, requiring litterally years to get any good at, but when it is done by an expert, the frets look brand spanking new. They are of course shorter, and you can only go so far before you start to have problems with the fret being too wide for the height - which makes a recrown all but impossible - but it is a lot less expensive than a refret (which involes not only replacing the frets, but also a dress, because it is all but impossible to get every fret to seat exactly the same).

Generally, you can get two to four dresses out of frets (more for bigger frets, obviously) before you need to refret. Think of all of this as being basically the same as changing the tires on your car. If you accelerate quickly and break hard, you need to change your tires more often (like me); if you drive your bimbo box (read Neal Stephenson!) like my sister, they last a lot longer. Frets are the same way. The more and harder you play, the more often you need to have fret work done. I, for instance, have had very little fret work done on any of my guitars, in part because I have so many that I don't play any one guitar a whole lot, and in part because I have a fairly light touch. On the other side of the coin is a customer I have who gets his frets completely replaced every 8-12 months.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
ez_willis said:
Holy cow, Light, if that ain't in depth I don't know what is.

I have a quick question that will seem stupid to you, but forgive me for I am a bass player by nature, and frets are optional.

What's a fret dress?

Or it could be something you wear when playing.
By the way light, that was a comprehensive description, informative and to the point.
 
Clive Hugh said:
By the way light, that was a comprehensive description, informative and to the point.


No, that was a long winded reply.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Light, what size of frets are on Gibson electrics? just curious is it the popular 6150 you mentioned?
 
Be Loveless said:
Just a side note about the stainless steel, I've used them ( on my parker) for five years and they still look and feel brand new.
Gawd bless those parker frets
 
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ibanezrocks said:
Light, what size of frets are on Gibson electrics? just curious is it the popular 6150 you mentioned?


Sorry I didn't get to this yesterday, but I wanted to check my memory with our shop manager.

Yeah, MOST Gibson electrics have Jumbo fret wire, such as the 6150. But then they also did the Fretless Wonder thing. They use a lot of different fret wires, at any rate.

6150 is also what Steve Ray Vaughn's guitar tech put on SRV's guitars (no idea where he got the "Gibson Bass fret's" thing).


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Light, I do all my own fret work, and I think it's ridiculous to pay somebody to..... gotcha. ;^) No, indeed, fret work is definitely a job for a pro, and it's something I wouldn't even think of attempting. I knew a guy once who thought it would be easy (no, it wasn't me), so he got out some files and went to "work" on his guitar, only to end up with a BIG repair bill. Gouged fingerboard, very ugly.

I know what you mean about those fretless wonders. My Les Paul was one when I bought it (used), and I loved the way it played for about 10 minutes after I got it home; I guess it took me that long to bend a string. The next day, it was back in the shop where I bought it being refretted with jumbos.

I'm a Neal Stephenson fan, too, BTW. The second book in the Quicksilver series just came out in paperback, and I'm going to get it today. I read everything I can get my hands on of his stuff. Have you read "In the Beginning There Was The Command Line" and the Stephen Bury work?

PS: i just bought a Conn Strobotuner on ebay for $25. It's an older one, in the brown case. If it works, it's a screaming deal, if not <shrugs>...
 
I would like to second the remark about stainless steel frets! After playing a parker fly and loving it I decided to put stainless steel frets on my Jackson Soloist. In addition to resisting wear, those things play like a dream. Super slick! Really good for effortless big bends and wide vibrato. The guitar does have just a bit of a brighter tone than before, but to me that is not a bad thing at all.
 
If I were to have my '61 Strat refretted, would I significantly diminish its value? It is an instrument, not a collector's item, but I need to consider all the variables.
 
I did a refret on my beater acoustic because it had become unplayable and it wasn't worth paying for a refret. I figured, what the hell it'll be a learning experience. In the end, it is now quite playable, but I wouldn't think of doing it myself again, especially on a nicer guitar. It was a pain in the ass, and even though I was extremely careful, I still managed to slip a couple times with the file and dinged the finish pretty badly. I really admire what you guys do Light.
 
ggunn said:
I knew a guy once who thought it would be easy (no, it wasn't me), so he got out some files and went to "work" on his guitar, only to end up with a BIG repair bill. Gouged fingerboard, very ugly.

Yup, that is about par for the course.


ggunn said:
I'm a Neal Stephenson fan, too, BTW. The second book in the Quicksilver series just came out in paperback, and I'm going to get it today. I read everything I can get my hands on of his stuff. Have you read "In the Beginning There Was The Command Line" and the Stephen Bury work?


I love his stuff, but only about the first 2/3 of his books. I don't know what it is about him, but man his endings suck. Snow Crash is OK, and I didn't get too pissed off at the end of Diamond Age, but Cryptonomicon is just the most unrelated and crappy ending I have ever read. I mean, what the fuck happened? Did the editor call when he was 400 pages into a 600 page book and say, we need it in a week? It sure feels rushed at the end, which sucks because the rest of the book is amazing. I haven't even looked at the Quicksilver stuff yet. I hate starting trilogy's before they are finished.


ggunn said:
If I were to have my '61 Strat refretted, would I significantly diminish its value? It is an instrument, not a collector's item, but I need to consider all the variables.

Yes, unfortunately. It shouldn't, but the vintage idiots out there are, in fact, idiots. The big question is what is the fingerboard? IIRC on a `61 it is rosewood, right? That is a good thing, as it will be less of an issue than on a maple board, and also less expensive. With a maple board you also have to do some finish work when you refret, which is an even bigger issue.

I have to say, though, that if your frets are badly worn (and on a `61, they sure as fuck better be, because if they aren't you haven't been playing enough) I think you should fuck the collector idiots and get the fret work done. Now, if it can be done by dressing, that is what you should do. If, however, it can't, then get it done and enjoy your guitar. It will, yes, have lost some value, but it will be playable, and that is WAY more important to me.

I'll tell you a little secret about collectors, too. They look for guitars which have never been played. But the thing is; most of the guitars which are in the kind of shape they want have never been played because they were dogs. If they were great guitars, usually they would have been played, and they would not have been so pristine. Equally important, guitars get BETTER as they are played. The vibration of the strings changes something in the wood (no one really know what), and they just get better. So basically, the guitars the collectors want are, for the most part, really banal sounding guitars.

Myself, I have always felt they are meant to be played. If they aren't, then what use are they?


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
I don't feel like starting a new thread - and since we're already talking about frets...

I read somewhere the other day that, over time, an ebony fingerboard (such as is on my new strat) shrinks and the frets can pop out the end :(

How long does this take, is there anything I can do to slow the process and is it fixable when it finally happens?

Many thanks :)
 
Codmate said:
I don't feel like starting a new thread - and since we're already talking about frets...

I read somewhere the other day that, over time, an ebony fingerboard (such as is on my new strat) shrinks and the frets can pop out the end :(

How long does this take, is there anything I can do to slow the process and is it fixable when it finally happens?

Many thanks :)


It is a humidity issue. Keep your guitar in the case with a humidifier anytime your house is particularly dry, and you should be fine. It happens with rosewood too. As the wood dries out, the wood shrinks, but the frets (of course) don't. It feels a bit like playing a serrated edge knife. This is also a good way to figure out how well a store takes care of their guitars. I remember going into Daddy's Junky Music across the street from Berklee and trying those Ernie Ball Eddie Van Halen guitars, and the fret ends where sticking WAY out. Not something you want to see.

IF this does happen to your guitar, the fret ends can be filed down (by a pro, please). It is not too expensive either. We usually charge about $30.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Light said:
It is a humidity issue. Keep your guitar in the case with a humidifier anytime your house is particularly dry, and you should be fine. It happens with rosewood too. As the wood dries out, the wood shrinks, but the frets (of course) don't. It feels a bit like playing a serrated edge knife. This is also a good way to figure out how well a store takes care of their guitars. I remember going into Daddy's Junky Music across the street from Berklee and trying those Ernie Ball Eddie Van Halen guitars, and the fret ends where sticking WAY out. Not something you want to see.

IF this does happen to your guitar, the fret ends can be filed down (by a pro, please). It is not too expensive either. We usually charge about $30.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi


Cool - many thanks for the advice :)
 
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