Fostex VF160

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shadowkat,
yeah, i think there is an alternative way to configure your setup
that should give you better flexiblity at mix down time.....
Do I have this right -
you have a 5 peice kit, one guitar amp, a bass, and 2 vocals that get recorded at once?

T
 
Keep It Coming!!

theletterq: ok, so come out the vf160 via aux send,go to the input (left side) of quadraverb. Then come out of output (left side) of the quadraverb, and go to input of one channel of the vf160 (not to powered mixer), right?....and this will give me effects as I record, right?......And yes, I'm recording a live show...and rehearsing this live show at home.....I'll use channel one for this effect hookup (where I had the drum mix going) and then use channels 7 & 8 for the drum mix....will this help alot???

teainthesahara: that's what I was thinking....I was afraid I might be limiting my capabilites, but was unsure of the possibilities. I have one guitar player, one bass player, one drummer with 5 piece kit, and three vocals (one lead, two back up) that get recorded at once.

Thanks for you continuing help!!!!
 
ok, suggestions!

Hi shadowkat…ok here are some idea’s:

The main goal behind these tips are to minimize the amount of submixes and mics you are using, but maximize the amount of tracks you are recording at once with the fostex. It’s kind of a less-is-more approach, and in this case could give you more flexibility at mixdown for the best sound. In this case, im assuming some of your drum mic’s are condensers and need phantom power, and im also assuming a few things about your mixers (more below).

The overview:
Guitar – Mic into VF
BASS – line in into VF
DRUMS – 3 mics only; each mic has it’s own fader/input
VOCAL 1 – mic into VF
VOCAL 2 – mic into VF
VOCAL 3 – mic into VF

With more detail:
GUITAR – mic that cab with whatever get’s the sound you like. Plug the XLR into one of the XLR-1/4 transformer’s you have (should be a impedance matching, LowZ to HiZ connector), and hook it up to track 1 on the VF.

BASS – I think you line-in set-up as previously described works – do it so you have one 1 / 4 input plugged into track 2 on the VF.

DRUMS – you got options here to match to your situation. I would recommend only using 3 mics, and avoid submixing – it can work just fine (submixing)– but you MUST get it right the first time and now that it will work in the mix – a challenging thing for us beginners. The aim is to get 3 superior sounding, independent tracks recorded to your VF that gives you flexibility later on. You can use an overhead mic, a snare mic, and a kick drum mic. Or, two overheads and a kick drum mic. If you’ve never done it before, and this will be a live run through of your set, I might opt for the overhead, snare kick setup. Put your condensor over the kit, play, and get a good balanced view of the cybals/toms. Plug this mic into the XLR input (track8) of the VF, which has phantom power. Take the snare, and run that through the other XLR-1/4 transformer – put that into, say, track 3 on the VF. OK – kick drum – watch out! – Assuming you are doing everything within the VF – post recording – realize that the low EQ control blows on the VF. Take the kick mic, put it into one of those mixers, say the Behringer. On the Behring. Mixer, pan that input HARD left. Then take the left output of the mixer, and plug it into input 4 on the VF – Basically, you are using the mixer as an XLR-1/4 adapter, and you can do this by putting only 2 mic’s into it, panning them hard left and right, and taking the LEFT and RIGHT outputs into the VF as separate inputs. Get that Bass guitar and kick working now, at this stage! – If need be, play with the kick drum mic placement, and do some subtractive EQ work on the mixer to cut out the crap you don’t need – the VF EQ wont let you do this later.

Vocal 1, 2, 3 – Same deal as the kick drum. Using the mixers, plug those in, and pan hard right or left. Using the LEFT and RIGHT outputs, insert those signals into the VF, so they get recorded separately.

Ok, so now, you should have everything you need to be recording plugged in, and you will be utilizing all 8 input tracks on the VF. You don’t have to restrict yourself to the example I wrote above especially if you want to add effects while tracking (I might be inclined to not worry about the effects while recording, simplify, and use the VF’s effects later)– just use the principles- using those mixers as ‘XLR-1/4 adapters with EQ capability’, and have fun…

T
 
oh yeah,
incase you did'nt know,
you know have tracks 9 to 16 open for your guitar player
to add his overdubs!!!!! And i dig the blues so you best
be posting some material later!!!

T
 
Yesterday I was recording a 6-piece metal band's demo with my VF16. The band was unknown to me and I only had met their keyboard player the day before and I'm not a metal guy so I didn't know exactly what I was into. To say that this was a demo is a bit exaggerated as they wanted to record it straight in with no overdubs to see what they are really capable of live and this is something I've never tried before. Using my little Fostex VM88 digital mixer to feed 8 extra channels to VF16 thru adat input we had 16 tracks to work with. Seven tracks was used for drums, 2 for 2 guitar cabs, 1 for bass amp's lineout, 1 for keyboard (the other was feeding keyboard amp) and 2 for vocals for total of 13 tracks. Setting up the mics and the recording gear took an hour and checking the levels to make sure nothing would clip took half an hour. The band had rehearsed the songs well and only 2 of the 7 songs needed a second take so in an hour we had 6 songs recorded. Recording 7 songs took two and a half hours from the moment I arrived to the scene. Talk about speed metal;-)

While writing this I'm transferring the songs over to Cubase using the adat interface and despite of what some of the die hard scsi fans say it's simple and straight forward and the time it takes can be used for something useful like surfing the web.
 
let's take a break

Pete,

Good job. Everyone benefits from the knowledge of using the digital mixer to get all tracks utilized, thanks for the reminder.

ADAT vs. SCSI part VI II IV? Comical !…..we could write a screen play…..in this scene, the evil Dr. SCSI and his two cronies Jaz and Zip are foiled in their attempt at interface domination – thanks to….uh…is it a bird ? Is it a plane? No, it’s…..ADAT MAN!……..ADAT man plugs in……….RUMBBBLLLEEEE…….thunder is heard I the distance……...HARRLYYY…LAMONT….JACOB……mothers call and claim their children off the street……FLUTTER FLAP……a flock of sparrows, once peacefully nesting in the willows are set into the sky, for once more….all must contend with the awe and power of …..ADAT MMMMAAAAANNNNNNNNNNN……..fade to black….
 
teainthesahara: I'm not using any condenser mics....Is this something I should consider???...I've been thinking about getting one for my vocal as I am the lead singer, and I also play drums, and could use it as overhead on cymbals. Also, did you see that post by letterq on adding effects to Vf160 (while recording) with the quadraverb??...Does that sound right to you??... I'm going to try the double tracks for the drums.....you are right about getting the sub-mix right the first time around. I started tweaking with it after the first recordings, thinking I could get it better, I now I'm totally lost!....The low eg on the vf160 sucks bad!.....I have the guitar line in on the vf160, and it has the best recording since day one!......It's the bass and drums that are giving me the trouble, and it's all because of the low end. What about all this talk regarding mic pres.....how important is that??....Let me know what you think about the hook up of the quadraverb. I can't seem to get a signal from it the way letterq described it (this can be monitored, right?) I'll post ya some songs as soon as I get the bugs out! You are helping me out a lot. Thanks............Mike
 
Which tracks are you wanting to use the quadraverb on? You are sending them to the unit with the Aux sends (internally, the Aux send level is up)?
 
Hey letterq:

You might wanna look at my earlier post answering you post on connecting the quad up.....I may have misunderstood.....but the way I described it there is how I did it......I thought it would add effects as it recorded to all tracks I wanted it on, but I really just need it for my vocal track. See what I posted and correct me. Please as be specific as you can be so I'll understand. Thanks.
 
Remember that you still have to use buss record to route your track through anything including the Aux sends. :)
 
ShadowKat said:
teainthesahara: I'm not using any condenser mics....Is this something I should consider???...I've been thinking about getting one for my vocal as I am the lead singer, and I also play drums, and could use it as overhead on cymbals. Also, did you see that post by letterq on adding effects to Vf160 (while recording) with the quadraverb??...Does that sound right to you??... I'm going to try the double tracks for the drums.....you are right about getting the sub-mix right the first time around. I started tweaking with it after the first recordings, thinking I could get it better, I now I'm totally lost!....The low eg on the vf160 sucks bad!.....I have the guitar line in on the vf160, and it has the best recording since day one!......It's the bass and drums that are giving me the trouble, and it's all because of the low end. What about all this talk regarding mic pres.....how important is that??....Let me know what you think about the hook up of the quadraverb. I can't seem to get a signal from it the way letterq described it (this can be monitored, right?) I'll post ya some songs as soon as I get the bugs out! You are helping me out a lot. Thanks............Mike

Hi Mike,
I somehow assumed that your nady drum mic’s were a kit of some sort that included condensers! It could be something to consider – the latest low-cost condensers will give you really good vocal and drum sounds. In that set-up I described where your only using 3 mics – I had assumed that one would be a condenser, and that can be crucial for picking up a good, clear sounding cymbal/tom/snare combo sound, so your choice for submixing might be the best if you only have the dynamics available. If you get the condenser, you will definitely hear what I’m talking about!

As you’ve discovered, getting that pre-mix right is essential, especially with the fostex units. I’ve got some suggestions for you that may help with that: 1) Set up your mics, and get the bass player, guitar(s) and any other instruments hooked up. Leave the EQ neutral and unaltered. 2) Do a recording, and record at least until all the instruments are playing their ‘main parts’ of the tune. 3) Listen to the playback – ALL FADERS UP, that is, simply play it back with everthing you recorded playing at once. 4) If you don’t like what you here now, especially in the low bass region, then it needs to be changed now; even if the VF’s low EQ was functionally perfect, chances are you still would not get what you were after with those tracks. 5) Adjust the mic placement for those instruments that are making the low bass mud – i.e. the kick drum mic, toms, bass if mic’d etc. – your mic placement is going to make the BIGGEST difference. 6) Gear up, record and play again. Take a listen. Assuming you mic placement is now as good as it can be, you can now use some strategic low EQ adjustments to fine tune the sound. This is not the ideal solution – but sometime’s you gotta do what you gotta do! 7) This is important – you need ALL your main tracks FADERS UP again. If you just EQ the drums by themselves, or only the bass until they sound good by themselves, they tend to develop new problems, or add to the low EQ mud problem that you were trying to get rid of. So, with those tracks faders-up, tweak the EQ on the mixer’s. Don’t boost too much at all! – you probably will end up cutting more than boosting. Basically, your ‘carving’ – when that kick and bass make lots of noise in the same frequency range – mud abound. You want to lightly ‘carve’ out sections of sonic space in one instrument to make room for the other to be heard – then the mud is gone! Focus on the main culprits. If you search around, there are some good, useful general guidelines as to what frequency range’s to work to – but really, your own ears are the best tools! 8) Your tracks at this point should be much closer to where you want them. Record away! If there not, the sound source and mic placement are where you need to put your attention again. Oh yeah – watch the guitars – they can interfer with the low end business as well if they are really bassy or are EQ’d down there. Oh yeah - make sure you have some monitors your comfortable with – if you gotta use headphones, then make sure you know them well and they don’t hype up the bass sound too much.

Oh yeah, Letterq’s got it right about the aux usage. You do need to do the buss record thing to make it work – I would be inclined to add the verb’s later….and on pre-amps – the VF’s pre-amps are nothing special, but they don’t give any problems either – I have found them to be perfectly fine for everthing Ive done with this machine! By far, putting money into a good mic will have the largest effect on your sound quality!

Looking forward to hearing your stuff when you done!
T
 
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