fletcher-munson curve

dobro

Well-known member


Oh yeah? Okay, so how do I know when I'm mixing at 90 db? And perhaps more importantly, how do I know when my esteemed listeners are listening at 90 dB? Can't answer that one? Okay, let's me stop being such an asshole. Let's say that I proceed mixing in the knowledge that we all hear 1-5 KHz better than other frequencies. Well, what difference does it make? Will I mix any differently knowing that? Or will I just mix as I usually do, according to how it sounds? (Yes.)

"Understanding the science of how we perceive sound will greatly influence the way you mix audio."

Oh, really? And how's that, then? What advantage do I have knowing that everybody hears 1-5K more easily?

I mix according to how it sounds, not according to an idea I read on the internet.

Help me with this. But be clear.
 
He doesn't really specify if this is mixing for live or for studio, so it could be important... In studio, it honestly doesn't really mean much to someone other than "be careful when you're dealing with frequencies in the 1-5kHz range." In live, it basically means that the louder it gets, the "better" it's going to sound.

Really, I don't know how this is a FUNDAMENTAL thing you need to know for mixing (he seems to think otherwise), but I think it's an interesting thing to know. That's about all I can gather.

I think when I was taking studio classes (our live classes taught us basically what I stated earlier as far as this curve goes), we only learned about this curve to know that what most engineers consider the "ideal" mixing level is like, 85-90dB or something like that, because we hear fairly flat at that level and it's not too loud that we have to take breaks every 15 minutes to save our ears. That's not to say you can't mix at lower or higher levels, it's really just saying that if you've got a long day ahead of you and you want to make sure you can hear all your very low and very high frequencies, appx. 85-90dB wouldn't be a bad place to start at.
 
Yeah, okay. But looking at the graph, 90 dB doesn't seem to have much of an advantage over the other levels, considering that all the levels are parallel. Is it because above 90 dB, we don't hear the lowest frequencies? Who'd mix that loud anyhow?
 
I do. I use a ratshack loudness meter to establish I'm roughly 85 dB at the mix position. I've been doing it this way for 20 years (based on the Fletcher-Munson curve).
 
Okay, let's me stop being such an asshole. Let's say that I proceed mixing in the knowledge that we all hear 1-5 KHz better than other frequencies. Well, what difference does it make? Will I mix any differently knowing that? Or will I just mix as I usually do, according to how it sounds? (Yes.)

It means that at all velocity levels the ears are more sensitive to certain frequencies than others, in other words loudness is not determined purely by the dBu level out from the converter, it is determined by what frequencies are played how loud at the particular dBu level. Let's say for instance you want your mix to match the loudness, clearity and dynamic level of a commercial mix, then depending on your skills with the fletcher-munson curve, the result will vary.

On one hand you might already have a frequency distribution that makes the signal clip or become very transient harsh very quickly when you approach the target loudness level by adjusting gain/limiting, on the other hand you might already have a frequency distribution that makes the signal not clip or not become very transient harsh very quickly when you approach the target loudness level by adjusting gain/limiting. These two scenarios are a result of whether you are aware of and take advantage of the fletcher-munson curve or not.

If you follow your well trained ears and don't take advantage of the fletcher-munson curve, then what is going to happen is that when you A/B your mix against your most favorite reference track, you are in most cases not going to give your mix better properties - you are going to conclude your mix is slightly less clear, slightly less dynamic, has a little less depth, is a bit harder on the ears and does not respond in the same way at various loudness levels, something is missing but you cannot say what it is. That also means your ears are going to tell you what is wrong and what needs to be corrected - but in this case they don't tell you how, the how means you need to change the core balance of your mix, something you don't immediately understand when you're at the end of the process and think you just need to do a few fixes and it will fly.

What it really is though is transient harshness, lack of depth and too high density, that's the difference. Because when you are not aware of the fletcher-munson curve there is a great chance you slowly push the mix off the cliff when you approach the target loudness level, the distortion is not very audible and you might not instantly notice how dense your mix really is in comparison, but these properties are likely found there.

When this happens you need to do some re-balancing work, based on the fletcher-munson curve and once you get very used to this you are going start dial in bright mixes that end up having the right transient softness, good depth and not a too high density at the target loudness level. This sound is kind of rather dynamic, rather loud, rather soft, rather bright with a good amount of depth.

What you can do to sort of align to the fletcher-munson curve without letting the process become too brain oriented and not ear driven enough, is that in the mix balancing process learn to feel the density and balance towards lightness/low density. This means you can still use your ears as normal, but the density you monitor with your feelings. This results in a bright/light mix going into mastering. Then, even if it is too light in density going into mastering, it will still be easy to make it right in the mastering process (unless you do some really strange high pass filtering on it), much easier than having a balanced but very dense mix going into the mastering process.

When I do the master I use different speakers to instantly tell me exactly how much signal I need in various frequency bands. If I receive a low density mix that is already pretty close to the target loudness level, then it's piece of cake to set the loudness and monitor how much more signal I need in the the different low frequency bands and adjust it to make the density fall into place. On the other hand, if I receive a dense mix far from the target loudness level, it's a more difficult and more time consuming work and the result is more prone to be of lower quality rather than of higher quality.

If you struggle with this and you use cans, and trust me it takes time and a lot of practicing to master this on cans, you can use a set of cans in mixing to set the core balance that help you tailor the mix towards low density in mixing. Such a pair of cans are the Focal Spirit Pro. The frequency curve of these is in a rather straight declining line with too much low end and too little high end, with the cross-over point near 1 kHz.
 
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"Understanding the science of how we perceive sound will greatly influence the way you mix audio."

Oh, really? And how's that, then? What advantage do I have knowing that everybody hears 1-5K more easily?

I mix according to how it sounds, not according to an idea I read on the internet.

Help me with this. But be clear.

It's simple. If you mix at low volumes you won't hear the highs and lows as well and you'll over-mix them. Mixing at a standardized volume is the same sort of idea as mixing on standardized speakers. That limits any deviations from your target sound to that caused by a particular playback setup, which the listeners are used to hearing.
 
Well, what difference does it make? Will I mix any differently knowing that? Or will I just mix as I usually do, according to how it sounds? (Yes.)
snip..

I mix according to how it sounds, not according to an idea I read on the internet.

Help me with this. But be clear
Well, try it this way. Being aware of the ..'sciences'? behind stuff gives you the means to apply it, and to help you make better or at least informed decisions right?
So you (or.. ok I do :p mix at reasonable levels -that turns out to be just about fine 'Fletcher Munson wise, for a lot of the general tasks, louder at times for other reasons -to hear things differently. But to do that as your norm', is counter productive -for a few real good reasons. And I'd expand that notion in the opposite direction even further; You can also get another completely different and useful view on your mixes at very low levels. Instruments/track balances (but not necessarily tone balances- ), and.. so any tasks you get done mixing at rather quite low levels, is also time you're stressing less your ears.. too.
 
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It's simple. If you mix at low volumes you won't hear the highs and lows as well and you'll over-mix them. Mixing at a standardized volume is the same sort of idea as mixing on standardized speakers. That limits any deviations from your target sound to that caused by a particular playback setup, which the listeners are used to hearing.
Agree with that except maybe the 'you won't hear the highs part. But in the end, I'll be wanting to do fine tune checking at each of the loudness ranges.
 
Agree with that except maybe the 'you won't hear the highs part. But in the end, I'll be wanting to do fine tune checking at each of the loudness ranges.

The effect is more broad in the lows, but definitely there in the highs above the 2k-5k region as well.
 
I don't know man; Fletcher-Munson has been recording 101 as long as I can remember... long before the Internet. It is important, but it's just another of the recording basics we're losing as this art becomes less professional. Standards and best practices are falling by the wayside. It comes down to mixing/mastering at a level that will translate well to average listening levels... a little louder or a little softer. Mixing too loudly will make you think your mix sounds brighter than it really does at "normal listening levels."

The thing is if you get everything right at about 70 dB it's going to sound great at ear splitting levels, but not the other way around. Hence the so-called Fletcher-Munson effect has been an important consideration in modern high fidelity recording since at least early '70s. It's one of the first concepts I was introduced to in terms of mixdown and mastering. Monitoring is generally underrated these days. But if you want good results you should build your studio from the monitoring system back. It shouldn't be an afterthought.

On the other hand, one could make a good argument that the days of hi-fi are over and people don't really care. As for me I still record as though people do care... or at least someday they will again, and will have the systems to do justice to well recorded music. I still use a sound level meter and set average monitoring levels to 70 dB in the sweet spot. Cranking your monitors during mixdown is like engaging the loudness switch on an amp. It'll sound great to you, but dull and lifeless on other systems.

I don't know who this guy is in the video. I learned about Fletcher-Munson from a gray-haired old guy when I apprenticed in a recording studio in 1978.
 
As I previously explained, the fletcher-munson curve helps us understand the difference between signal level and loudness, which is a very very important thing to understand in order use the available signal in the most efficient way.

When you know that the ears are less sensitive to the low end frequencies, it means that the available signal can be eaten up by the low end frequencies without the mixing engineer noticing that. When that then goes into the limiting process (typically brickwall peak limiting on the master bus) - a process in which you focus a lot on the loudness as it relates to other commercial mixes - what is going to happen is that a broad range of mid and low frequencies are going to get a very significant dose of signal attenuation and this causes a lot of nasty bi effects. The stereo image takes a very big hit from this because what separates sound sources in the stereo field is to a great degree the difference in transient content of various sound sources in various frequency bands on each speaker and between each speaker. Another thing is that the more dense the mix is, the more you are going to have to limit it until you reach to target loudness level, which means the transients are at some point going to start distorting when the brickwall limiter cannot cope with the amount of signal it has to attenuate. Another thing is that the naturally harsh frequencies that the ears are sensitive to 1 - 5 kHz, are not going to be softened by the limiter as much as when you use a fletcher-munson optimized input, which means that although you might close in on the target commercial mix in terms of loudness, you are not going to have that same softness because in that commercial mix those "hard" upper mid/high frequencies are kept under much better control, ensuring that sounds like vocals, snare and hi-hat will remain pleasant at all volume levels and across the whole mix. At the same time it will have more dynamics and depth because the transients of the low end and mids are kept more natural by the less amount of signal attenuation on those frequency bands at the same loudness.

When it comes to how loudly one should monitor in general, in my experience I would say somewhere at around 4 on a scale between 1 - 9. The way I tailor the monitoring level to this is that I make it very loud, then I drop the volume by around half in terms of perceived loudness, then slightly below that I find the sweet spot to be. Less loud beyond that makes the mixes sounding harsh at loud volumes, at louder volume levels it can make the mix sound a bit weak when later played back at lower volume levels. Having said that, I do find it's more important to reference check on loud volume than on quiet volume, quiet volume can help create some distance to the sound which can be good to better notice transient harshness, but loud monitoring levels will reveil how hard or soft your mix is. When I mix with a too low playback volume, what usually happens is that the mix turns out too loud and too harsh when I later check how the mix sounds at louder volume levels. A mix should turn more and more beautiful when you increase the volume level. Basically this means you need great control of 1 - 5 kHz and need to have that frequency range in a good ratio to the other frequency ranges. And that you can achieve more easily when you take advantage of the fletcher-munson curve when setting the core balance of your mix.

Another thing to keep in mind about this is that mix vitality - how alive your mix feels and sounds - does not come from loudness, it comes from signal level/gaining without transient distortion. This is another area where you can gain a lot of mix quality from knowing about the fletcher-munson curve. With more signal gaining without transient distortion comes a fuller more beautiful more alive sounding mix. When you have softened the mix in the right way with compressors and used the fletcher-munson curve to your advantage, what you end up with is being able to gain the mix more before the transients turn harsh. So by using the fletcher-munson curve you can also get more vitality out at the target loudness level. The transient harshness comes from transient distortion over a wide frequency range, although it might be difficult to hear it sits on the kick, snare, the vocals, the guitars ... and more constantly over time.

There are several things you can do to help combat the transient harshness, one is to compress the 1 - 5 kHz range on centrally panned instruments such as the bass guitar. An important thing about transients is that they help distinguish the sound in the stereo field. This is of course also the case about the bass guitar. If you add signal level in its 1 - 5 kHz range it's going to get louder and the bass line will become more clear. This however I have found out is an area where you can also release a little signal instead so that other instruments, especially ones panned on either side, can separate more clearly, because in this frequency area where the ears are very sensitive you have a great chance of improving the stereo image and I find it makes little sense to make sound sources not naturally dominant in this frequency range remove sterero element separation from the other sound sources in the stereo field by fighting for attention in this frequency range. Having said that, you should be careful not to remove too much of it, the bass line is still very important, so it's a balancing act. I have found that when you attenuate the bass guitar's upper mids and highs, it tends to give the mix a little more emotion too. My theory about why is that when you have other sound sources such as background vocals and electric guitars with harmonic content, having less transients cutting through that layer of frequencies will help to harmonize the mix as a result of less modulation distortion, it kind of adds some peace to the listening experience, as a listener you can attach more easily to the harmonic chords. This is why I use a little compression and reverb on the bass guitar's upper mid/high frequencies, to make it a little more blurry and enhance the perceived sharpness of the really harmonic content on other sound sources in the same frequency range.
 
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I thought everyone was going to go 'yeah, you're right'. I can see this thread is going to take some studying. Thanks for weighing in, everyone.
 
I thought everyone was going to go 'yeah, you're right'. I can see this thread is going to take some studying. Thanks for weighing in, everyone.

I can understand so. Many have preconceived ideas that the science of music is and needs to be really simple, they have a hard time accepting that great mixes have a lot of surprisingly advanced techniques applied that make them great sounding due to those techniques (often that complexity sits being some knobs on some gear though, making it all appear as if it is very simple when it's not). In the human nature is this idea of simplifying everything to max, so instead of doing a fix on a particular sound source's particular frequency band on a particular speaker they apply it on both speakers on the master bus. In my experience that has to be the most common issue with mixes out there - the idea of doing something on the micro level makes the human brain go nuts. It's easy to forget Einstein's golden rule: "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler".

But if you want great sounding mixes, the default balancing scope should be individual frequency bands on individual speakers when we're talking stereo mixing, in mono mixing you do the same thing on both speakers. For any newbie out there it takes many years of experience to end up there. :)

And in stereo mixing you target particular bands on both speakers when you want the impact of that application to be mix wide. An example would be if you want a mix to be rather chorused, then you would apply the chorus on some frequency bands on the rhodes and on both speakers and also then pan that instrument to the center. Put this in contrast to for instance electric guitar distortion, you want the electric guitar to distort with the distortion effect, but in for instance a pop mix you probably want minimal distortion on the mix as a whole from it, hence you put it on some frequency bands on one of the speakers rather than on both and pan it to one side. When you then apply reverb to it you can do so on the other speaker - you feed a cleaner electric guitar signal into the reverb algorithm and end up with a sweeter result.
 
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He doesn't really specify if this is mixing for live or for studio, so it could be important... In studio, it honestly doesn't really mean much to someone other than "be careful when you're dealing with frequencies in the 1-5kHz range." In live, it basically means that the louder it gets, the "better" it's going to sound.

Really, I don't know how this is a FUNDAMENTAL thing you need to know for mixing (he seems to think otherwise), but I think it's an interesting thing to know. That's about all I can gather.

I think when I was taking studio classes (our live classes taught us basically what I stated earlier as far as this curve goes), we only learned about this curve to know that what most engineers consider the "ideal" mixing level is like, 85-90dB or something like that, because we hear fairly flat at that level and it's not too loud that we have to take breaks every 15 minutes to save our ears. That's not to say you can't mix at lower or higher levels, it's really just saying that if you've got a long day ahead of you and you want to make sure you can hear all your very low and very high frequencies, appx. 85-90dB wouldn't be a bad place to start at.

All that makes sense. As for studio mixing, the only thing I'd think might be significant is knowing that a boost of 2 dB at 3K is going to better perceived than a boost of 2 dB at 70 Hz. But...since I listen to everything carefully in order to get the sound I want, what difference does having that Fletcher-Munson knowledge make?
 
It's simple. If you mix at low volumes you won't hear the highs and lows as well and you'll over-mix them. Mixing at a standardized volume is the same sort of idea as mixing on standardized speakers. That limits any deviations from your target sound to that caused by a particular playback setup, which the listeners are used to hearing.

Okay, I get that. But everything I've read by any numbers of pros suggests listening at different levels. If what you say is true (that's what the FM stuff says) then pros who mix at low volumes achieve success because they know how to make it sound good at that volume in a way that will also sound good when they crank it, right?
 
The thing is if you get everything right at about 70 dB it's going to sound great at ear splitting levels, but not the other way around. Hence the so-called Fletcher-Munson effect has been an important consideration in modern high fidelity recording since at least early '70s.

Yeah, that makes sense if you accept what the guy says about 90 dB being flatter through the frequency range. But if you look at that equal loudness chart, the 90 dB line doesn't seem much flatter to me. In fact, each of the loudness curves seems parallel to all the others. The 90 dB curve doesn't seem any flatter than the 60 dB curve. So why not mix at 60 dB and save your ears, like mixsit says.
 
All that makes sense. As for studio mixing, the only thing I'd think might be significant is knowing that a boost of 2 dB at 3K is going to better perceived than a boost of 2 dB at 70 Hz. But...since I listen to everything carefully in order to get the sound I want, what difference does having that Fletcher-Munson knowledge make?

Haha, exactly. It doesn't really seem to matter that much in studio use for me, other than for the fact of knowing that, and maybe for knowing that you might want to mix a smooth jazz record a little quieter than a metalcore album (considering the audience of smooth jazz isn't as likely to be listening to the album at 110dB, but metalheads tend towards blasting their music).

Those are really the only two instances I can think of this being useful as a "tool" in the studio environment, but as you said, the first reason doesn't even really apply as long as you're using your ears and listening.
 
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