Fleshing out a song - help needed

[fritsthegirl]

Hi,

I was just thinking about how I'd like to make my songs a bit longer and more interesting musically. Just with a nice bridge or an instrumental. Thing is, I seem to get locked into a certain pattern really quickly. Like I'll go with a G, D, A whatever, and a couple of lines that fit, and then my brain just wants to play that over and over and over. You might have noticed.

I don't really have much musical knowledge to find other things that might compliment what I've already got. I'd like to work on this. I wondered if maybe you had some advice on how I could flesh stuff out a bit more? I feel like maybe I'm not giving it enough time or I need to learn something...or something.

 

[miroslav]

Well...why not pick out some existing songs that you like, and dissect them....look at their arrangement, structure...and use that as a guide.

 

[RAMI]

Well...why not pick out some existing songs that you like, and dissect them....look at their arrangement, structure...and use that as a guide.

Awesome suggestion. I was racking my brain trying to put into words how I do it, but had trouble even figuring out how I do it.

But, no matter what some might say about playing covers, learning them is one of the best ways to develop your own writing style. After doing a bunch of originals, I always like to give my brain a break and just copy a cover. Whenever I do that, I always learn something about song-writing, song structure, recording teqhniques, mixing techniques, etc.....

 

[fritsthegirl]

Well...why not pick out some existing songs that you like, and dissect them....look at their arrangement, structure...and use that as a guide.

Yeh, that is a good idea. I did do that a lot more before i started recording, I guess I got a bit side-tracked. I think my playing was better back then. I need to go back to it. Take a break from creating the next #1 hit for a while. LOL.

 

[fritsthegirl]

Awesome suggestion. I was racking my brain trying to put into words how I do it, but had trouble even figuring out how I do it.

But, no matter what some might say about playing covers, learning them is one of the best ways to develop your own writing style. After doing a bunch of originals, I always like to give my brain a break and just copy a cover. Whenever I do that, I always learn something about song-writing, song structure, recording teqhniques, mixing techniques, etc.....

I find it hard to think of female artists that I want to sing or copy, but I am with you guys on this. I like Blondie and Marlena Shaw, so...it's not exactly like I'll ever achieve that. You got any suggestions?

 

[RAMI]

I find it hard to think of female artists that I want to sing or copy

So find a guy's song that you like. It's not even a matter of actually recording it. I often just go through random songs, pick up my guitar, and see if I can figure out the tune before it ends. Any song.

Tom Petty has good simple songs to learn. I've never put on one of his tunes, but I'm sure Neil Young's tunes are great learning tools for acoustic guitar. Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young, too....just off the top of my head.

 

[Bristol Posse]

I've set myself a goal to learn a song a week for the next few months. I'll ask my kids what they like, ask my wife to pick something and then I bought some sheet music and tab for stuff I've never even listened to before.

So far I've done some bluegrass, A7X, Cure, Katy Perry, Metallica, No Doubt, Taylor swift, Panterra etc., as well as some tunes off some kids TV shows

None of this stuff I would normally consider digging into but it all has something to teach (even if its just to teach you that you don't want to do it that way)

Don't just look at stuff you like, you already listened to that a bunch. Widen your horizons

 

[fritsthegirl]

So find a guy's song that you like. It's not even a matter of actually recording it. I often just go through random songs, pick up my guitar, and see if I can figure out the tune before it ends. Any song.

Tom Petty has good simple songs to learn. I've never put on one of his tunes, but I'm sure Neil Young's tunes are great learning tools for acoustic guitar. Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young, too....just off the top of my head.

You're totally right, it's an exercise in music, more than trying to make it into something to record. I guess I've been focused on recording and let the learning on the guitar slip. Appreciate you guys honing me back in on what's important. Needed that.

 

[mjbphotos]

Learning songs will help your technique more than sitting around writing new songs. One of the open mics I've been going to regularly (twice a month) has a theme each month - it was 'British invasion' 2 months ago, 'songs since 2003' last month and this month 'local' (Massachusetts) bands.
Even though I already knew a ton of British songs, I picked up a couple of songs I had never done before and re-learned a few I hadn't played in years. For the 'new' stuff, it was a bit harder as I typically don't hear much on the radio that impressed me, but I did learn a few.
For this month's Massachusetts theme, so far I've learned the Barry Goodreau/Brad Delp song, "Rockin' Away".

 

[miroslav]

While you can actually learn covers, and it does help hone your skills....even if you simply analyze some popular songs, it will help you get past the G, D, A… monotony.

Take Petty song....how does it start, what's the transition like between verses and chorus, is there a bridge, how does it end...etc...etc.
I mean, you don't even have to get crazy analytical about it, just listen to some songs and think about what is happening arrangement-wise rather than just listening for entertainment.

Then, using your chosen chords, melody, lyrics....write a song following one of those arrangement styles.

 

[Mickster]

I had the same problem.......until I finally realized that it was due to the way I wrote songs to begin with. I was writing lyrics that were pretty much poems.......which by nature does not lend itself to a bridge or other change up. I couldn't find my way out of the cadence / feel of the poem. I finally realized that I had to purposely write a lyrical bridge before I put music to it. That made all the difference. As well, if you start a song musically and not lyrically......you run into the same problem. You began with a riff or progression that was a finite loop so to speak. We all fall for a cool groove......so your problem is universal for sure

 

[kip4]

Ghost writing is a great song structure learning tool I agree Miro.
Just use the same chords from the song . Write your own melody and lyrics. Say if the melody in the original starts off on the tonic (key note) eg G start your melody off on the 3rd (B)or 5th (D) of the key.
It might make you write your own melody easier without the temptation to copy the original.
Sorry I haven't listened to your stuff I've been very busy lately.
My other advice is to keep the songs theme (idea) simple. Keep the tense ( future,present,past) the same through out . Unless of course it's chronological.
Some one stop me ranting. I hope some of this helps and the other thing is write in a way that it will appeal to the largest audience possible. Ie most people could relate to the idea behind it.

 

[Armistice]

Not every musical idea is strong enough to sustain a song.

It sounds to me like you get a musical idea, then very quickly turn it into a song and BAM! done. Oh whoops, I forgot to put a bridge in... hmmm...

Maybe next time you come up with something, stop, and don't write a song with it. See if you can think of some other musical idea that might complement it before you go plunging in. Think of how the two might work together. See if you can put the music together before even worrying about words...

And additional musical ideas don't have to fit into the standard format - you can start a song with something different, end one, put it in the middle, put two in different spots etc. Don't follow "the rules" too closely or your songs will sound like everyone else's.

I often don't have a lyrical bridge, but just a musical instrumental passage of some sort - you heard that in that song of mine in the clinic - or sometimes I will, or sometimes I'll have both, or neither. Or sometimes I'll just start with something as an intro that never gets revisited. Or end. Or all of the above in the one song. Or none.

Play around. Yes, listen to covers and dissect them, but don't think "I have to do it this way!" because you don't. Slowly, something emerges... it will be you. This is good.

 

[miroslav]

I'm sure there are a lot of folks here who can write songs easily and regularly....and it's not some real special talent IMO, it just takes practice. I've been writing songs for a long time, and I can now get a song going with just a few guitar strums, and already I'm thinking structure and arrangment.....but, you have to write a lot of shit songs to get maybe 2-3 that are really decent...but that too, is a matter of practice.

For me, it's usually a couple of chords and maybe one or two lines of lyrics that pop into my head almost simultaneously...and after that it's mostly about sitting down and *deciding* what I want to do with them.
I work out the structure and get the arrangement going....then I sit down and finish the lyrics around that arrangement. Lyrics take the most time for me, the other stuff flows pretty fast.

So....the point is to write...write....write.....and be prepared to shelve a lot of them, but with each new song, you get better at it. Don't throw any away...sometimes you find that the better sections of two mediocre songs can be combined to make one pretty good song. Also, try to consciously change things up, so you are not writing the same song over and over....which is a trap one can fall into without realizing. Don't start everything with the same key, same chords, same rhythm and tempo...etc.

 

[RAMI]

I'm sure there are a lot of folks here who can write songs easily and regularly....and it's not some real special talent IMO, it just takes practice. I've been writing songs for a long time, and I can now get a song going with just a few guitar strums, and already I'm thinking structure and arrangment.....but, you have to write a lot of shit songs to get maybe 2-3 that are really decent...but that too, is a matter of practice.

For me, it's usually a couple of chords and maybe one or two lines of lyrics that pop into my head almost simultaneously...and after that it's mostly about sitting down and *deciding* what I want to do with them.
I work out the structure and get the arrangement going....then I sit down and finish the lyrics around that arrangement. Lyrics take the most time for me, the other stuff flows pretty fast.

So....the point is to write...write....write.....and be prepared to shelve a lot of them, but with each new song, you get better at it. Don't throw any away...sometimes you find that the better sections of two mediocre songs can be combined to make one pretty good song. Also, try to consciously change things up, so you are not writing the same song over and over....which is a trap one can fall into without realizing. Don't start everything with the same key, same chords, same rhythm and tempo...etc.

Exactly exactly exactly. Hey Miro, you're really on today. We should get more chicks posting here.

For me, it's usually a couple of chords and maybe one or two lines of lyrics that pop into my head almost simultaneously.

Yeah, me too. Except I usually get jibberish words oand phrases. What ends up happening is that I get used to the vowels I'm jibberishing. So, when I write real words, I find myself looking for words with those same vowels, though I've found they don't have. to be. But it takes a while to get used to "eee"s or "iiii"s when you were jibberishing "ooo"s and "uuuu"s.

 

[c7sus]

Another really good "exercise" is to figure out and play whatever tune pops into your head.

Or transpose stuff into other keys with a capo. Not just moving the "regular" chording up a couple frets, but rather learning the tune in its' normal key but using the different voicings available by transposing the fingering. Not the most elegant verbage there. Hopefully you catch my drift.

Or try thinking about what other melodies will go with a given chord progression. The intro of Ringo's "It Don't Come Easy" is interchangable with the intro of Clapton's "Let It Rain." The bridge that Jerry solos over on "Mississippi Half-Step Uptown Toodeloo" is the verse of Dylan's "Ballad Of A Thin Man" and also George Harrison's "While My Guitar Gently Weeps". Stuff like that.

I read a comment by Phil Lesh a while back regarding transposing music. He stated that using key signatures with more sharps would produce a "brighter" overall sound and mood than using keys with more flats. I'm not really sure about the validity of that comment, because in my mind it's pretty much a math equation like addition or subtraction. But Phil knows a lot more about theory than I'm ever gonna know!

Jerry Garcia was asked about how much influence his melodies had over Hunter's lyrics. Jerry said it mostly boiled down to replacing consonants with vowels because you can't sustain a consonant.

 

[Mr Clean]

Another thing you can try is take the chords of a song you like and play them backwards, mix them up, find a new melody over the chord progression. A relative minor is a good place to start a bridge. If you're playing in D go to a Bm. G >Em etc. Just that one chord change can really open things up and lead you back to a different progression for chorus/verse.

Also try writing songs out of your comfort zone of G A D. Starting on a minor chord can open up new avenues when song writing. The limits are very wide and surprising.

The advice above about listening to other songs and dissecting how they're structured is really good advice. Most songwriters have learned the craft by following the art that others have left before them. Even Lennon and McCartney started playing other peoples songs

Have faith and confidence.....it's the way forward

 

[miroslav]

Hey Miro, you're really on today. We should get more chicks posting here.

We should get more....regardless.

Yeah, me too. Except I usually get jibberish words oand phrases. What ends up happening is that I get used to the vowels I'm jibberishing. So, when I write real words, I find myself looking for words with those same vowels, though I've found they don't have. to be. But it takes a while to get used to "eee"s or "iiii"s when you were jibberishing "ooo"s and "uuuu"s.

I've had complete songs start off with just a single word for a song.....or maybe just a good title.
Yeah, often I will hum/sing gibberish phrases just to get the melody and arrangement going...and to use that for the phrasing of the lyrics which will come later.

 

[c7sus]

We should get more....regardless.




I've had complete songs start off with just a single word for a song.....or maybe just a good title.
Yeah, often I will hum/sing gibberish phrases just to get the melody and arrangement going...and to use that for the phrasing of the lyrics which will come later.

"Yesterday" started out as "scrambled eggs".

 

[RAMI]

True story.