Fix it in the mastering?

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bfloyd6969

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Hello all. When I'm mixing my projects, I always notice how they lack that pro sounding polish that I hear on commercial releases - the high end shimmer and the tight low end, and everything in between. I have a few eq tools that I use in my mastering process that gives me these shimmers and tight lows, but should I be getting these results in the mix, rather than relying on the master to get them? I believe I read long ago that everything that can be done in the mix should be and not in the master. I believe it also read that mastering should really just be about getting the overall level up to where it needs to be and to not be trying to fix a mix. Being still kind of new to recording, and completely new to mastering, I'd appreciate your comments on this. Thanks.
 
bfloyd6969 said:
...should I be getting these results in the mix, rather than relying on the master to get them? I believe I read long ago that everything that can be done in the mix should be and not in the master...
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The results you are looking for should be found in the source, so fix the source. You shouldn't be needing to fix anything in the mixing or the mastering process.
 
You shouldn't need to fix anything with mastering, but mastering engineers do a lot more than just make shit loud, and sometimes corrective EQ or compression helps. Not to mention, you're probably not using totally mega-pro gear, so do what you have to do. Don't compare yourself to real mastering engineers or what they do.
 
Thanks. I'm not trying to compare myself to pro engineers, just trying to get the best home recording results that I can get. I know with my limited gear and lack of experience that I will not get a commercial release master, but just want to obtain pleasant results to my ears. By fixing, I don't mean that there is any damage in the recording process. Everything is tracked very well at proper levels. However, we all know that mixing requires all elements to be fit together in the frequencies spectrum and some things need to be eq'd differently to fit in a mix. This is what I am referring to.

To elaborate a bit more, my mixes seem to sound a bit dull. I can bring the mix alive with some overall enhancing of the high and low spectrums of the entire mix. However, should I be doing this enhancing in the individual instrument mixing process? Perhaps add some high end lift to just those elements in that range like the cymbals and some higher end of the guitars and vocals? Perhaps tighten up the low end just at the bass guitar and kick drum? - doing all of this in the mixing end and not so much on the master?
 
Yeah that stuff should be done while mixing.

Also, if everything sounds "dull" you might wanna look at your monitoring situation. How are you monitoring?
 
bfloyd6969 said:
Hello all. When I'm mixing my projects, I always notice how they lack that pro sounding polish that I hear on commercial releases - the high end shimmer and the tight low end, and everything in between. I have a few eq tools that I use in my mastering process that gives me these shimmers and tight lows, but should I be getting these results in the mix, rather than relying on the master to get them? I believe I read long ago that everything that can be done in the mix should be and not in the master. I believe it also read that mastering should really just be about getting the overall level up to where it needs to be and to not be trying to fix a mix. Being still kind of new to recording, and completely new to mastering, I'd appreciate your comments on this. Thanks.
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By the end of the mix stage, the sound should be pretty well intact. Mastering, when done right might give you that last 5% that ties everything together... icing on the cake. I think in the best circumstances, mastering can give you what you describe... but it is a very high expectation to think that you can learn the craft of mastering and then apply it to mixes you yourself have done and be able to achieve the results you are after.
 
bfloyd6969 said:
By fixing, I don't mean that there is any damage in the recording process. Everything is tracked very well at proper levels. However, we all know that mixing requires all elements to be fit together in the frequencies spectrum and some things need to be eq'd differently to fit in a mix. This is what I am referring to.

To elaborate a bit more, my mixes seem to sound a bit dull. I can bring the mix alive with some overall enhancing of the high and low spectrums of the entire mix. However, should I be doing this enhancing in the individual instrument mixing process?
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Your idea of mixing is off. If something won't even fit until you apply EQ, that is "fixing" it. Imagine a professional orchestra. With no sound man or microphone in sight, they can fit close to 100 instruments together by virtue of the musicians listening to their surroundings as they play and actively making their sound work with everything else that is happening, the conductor keeping a watchful ear over the entire thing and directing people to play softer or louder if they fall out of place, and the composer not writing a violin part that steps on a clarinet part in the first place.

You can do the same thing with electric guitars and drums. If it fits, it fits whether it was picked up by a mic or not. Writing and performance make or break this. Know how dominant or submissive each instrument should be while you are writing as well as while you are playing.

By the time you are mixing, if something doesn't fit it needs fixing. You don't want to be fixing at mix time. You want to be enhancing at mix time. Take something that already works and make it even better. No, you can't avoid fixing some things in the mix. Sometimes a bad track comes your way. But it shouldn't be the normal way of doing things.
 
Waltz Mastering said:
I think in the best circumstances, mastering can give you what you describe... but it is a very high expectation to think that you can learn the craft of mastering and then apply it to mixes you yourself have done and be able to achieve the results you are after.
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Thanks for the replies and opinions everyone.

@ Tom Waltz - so are you saying that I will never be able to learn how to master my own mixes? I don't understand what you mean by this...

@ Greg L - I am using Rockit 5 for monitoring. I use the same monitors to pop in and out commercial recordings to see how far off I am.

@ Chibi Nappa - I agree that everything should be fitting together before the recording process starts, but that is a perfect world isn't it :) Alot of the high end boutique amps have so much low end to them that even with the bass rolled off completely at the amp it still conflicts with the bass guitar alot of times. I also feel that bass guitars and kick drums will always compete in a mix, no?

Please understand everyone that I joined the forums to learn. I am the first to say that I know very little about all of this. I hope I'm not getting the worng impression that mastering should just be done only by those that have experience with it and that I should not even bother. I mean, we all need to start to learn somewhere, right? Thanks again to all.
 
bfloyd6969 said:
@ Tom Waltz - so are you saying that I will never be able to learn how to master my own mixes? I don't understand what you mean by this...
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No, I am not saying you will never be able to learn.

What I am saying is you have set a lofty goal for yourself and should plan to work very hard and for a long time to achieve it. There are no simple and quick answers that someone can give you over the internet.

You want your songs to be up there with your favorite commercial releases but you say you are fairly new to recording:
bfloyd6969 said:
When I'm mixing my projects, I always notice how they lack that pro sounding polish that I hear on commercial releases
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bfloyd6969 said:
Being still kind of new to recording, and completely new to mastering, I'd appreciate your comments on this.
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I'm saying that audio engineering is a skill that can take along time to develop. Work on as many projects and get as much experience as you can. IMO, you should not expect world class results with out the experience of making many records.
 
bfloyd6969 said:
Please understand everyone that I joined the forums to learn. I am the first to say that I know very little about all of this. I hope I'm not getting the worng impression that mastering should just be done only by those that have experience with it and that I should not even bother. I mean, we all need to start to learn somewhere, right? Thanks again to all.
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You can definitely do it yourself. Just understand that those pro releases you compare yourself to are done by serious professionals with decades of experience and thousands of dollars in gear. Baby steps dude. You can definitely make good "masters" in the home recording realm with budget consumer gear. You're gonna have to really work at it though. A good listening environment and good monitors are step 1. 5" Rokits are marginal at best. Is your room acoustically pleasant? Have you taken care of the bass buildup in the corners and pesky reflection points? How about your ears? Do you actually know what you're listening for? Can you identify when a kick is too fluffy or a bass gtr is too boomy? Don't get ahead of yourself. Take your time and learn.
 
Thanks for the replies guys. I won't learn unless I ask, right. The internet is probably the easiest access way to ask and learn. As said, there is no better way than time and experience - trial and error. I'm just looking for a way to start the learning process. I appreciate all the comments and advice and will leave it alone at time is key.
 
Give me $1000 and I'll teach you to be a mastering engineer in a half hour.
 
I know a Mexican who will do it for $50 but it takes him over an hour.
 
Just get the Chinese to do it then. All you need is 30 cents, a dead cat, and apathy.
 
bfloyd6969 said:
@ Chibi Nappa - I agree that everything should be fitting together before the recording process starts, but that is a perfect world isn't it :) Alot of the high end boutique amps have so much low end to them that even with the bass rolled off completely at the amp it still conflicts with the bass guitar alot of times. I also feel that bass guitars and kick drums will always compete in a mix, no?
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No, the world isn't perfect...but you don't have to be anywhere near perfect to have everything fit together before mixing starts. There is tons of room for error. Put yourself in your mixing frame of mind while tracking and it will be much easier. Remember the pecking order of each part. Assign about 3 things to be "foreground" and never forget everything else is background. When you're dialing in a guitar sound, don't simply dial up a tone you love. You need to dial up a tone you love that also is subservient to the big dogs (vocals, snare drum, and bass usually but it can vary greatly). It is a huge help to have scratch vocals for the entire recording process. When you're playing the track, listen to the vocals and actively stay out of their way. Maybe on a soft vocal line you don't strum the lowest string on the guitar or something. And remember that it's OK for a foreground part to step on a background part even in the final mix. You don't need to (and often shouldn't) separate everything.

I promise that even the bass guitar and kick drum can play well together right out of the gate. Grab that drum key and tune up those skins! Slap the bass player until he stops stepping on the kick. Persuade the drummer to stop kicking like a weak girl. Iron it out. Pretty much learn to listen to the rest of the band and fit in. Like a band. Whatever it takes.

Think of it this way: When the first bass player and drummer crawled out of the primordial ooze sometime around 1900, there wasn't anything like the modern soundman in existence to make their sounds work together. If a bass drum and a bass guitar didn't naturally work great together, bands would have never formed that used them together. But almost every band ended up using them. They were paired up because they work so well together...if they are actively trying to work well together.
 
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Yes the mix should be pretty much there when you come to master.

Mastering is like icing on the cake and can make things really work together and achieve the right overall vibe you want. Lots of small tweaks on great equipment and an experienced engineer can really add up subjectively to a greater than sum of parts.

I generally offer free mix appraisal if a client is going ahead with a job and that they seem to value greatly. i like this as well cause the master is better in the end and thats better for me.

cheers
 
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