FitZ, need your help man!

[Myriad_Rocker]

Or anyone else that wants to lend a thought or two.

In this new construction studio build, I'm banging my head against the wall about two things. 1, my studio layout and 2, the HVAC system. I was hoping you may be able to help me on both.

Studio Layout
I keep trying to move rooms around and get things the way I want them. I need a control room, live room, at least 1 iso booth, 1 restroom, and an office. I'd also like a storage closet either off the live room or off the control room for storing mics, stands, etc etc.

CR Dimensions - 12 x 13 2/3 x 16 2/3 I got this using one of the ratios. Sepmeyer #1, I think.

I can work everything else kind of around that but I do know I want to be able to put a full band in the live room if I need to. The restroom needs to be a full one...meaning, small shower, pedestal sink, and toilet.

The office...I was thinking 10 x 10 is fine. I'm going to put an L shaped desk in there and a couple of chairs for any clients that come in. I'm also going to have a mini fridge and a microwave in the office. Oh, and probably a TV, but I'd hang that on the wall, I think. But I'm sure that stuff won't be a problem putting in. I might actually need a slightly larger office? Not sure. My initial guess was 10 x 10, though. And the office doesn't necessarily have to be in its own room either. It could be at the end of a hallway as part of a lounge area. Whatever. I just want to be cost effective about it.

The building size I'm trying to work with is 31' x 30'. But I can probably squeeze that out a bit more to 35' x 30' if need be. I just don't wanna go too big because it will dwarf my house, which I don't want. For the office, if there's not enough room, the builder said we could bump out a corner from the building pretty easily...it doesn't have to be rectangular. But I'm fairly open as long as it doesn't have a lot of corners because that increases cost.

HVAC
The next item up for confusion is the HVAC. I'm going back and forth with the idea of doing a standard HVAC unit versus doing a mini split. Of course, a mini split is going to be duct less. With a standard HVAC, I'd either have to go with insulated over sized flex duct with no sags and plenty of 90 angles or insulated sheet metal duct. I'm not sure I could afford insulated sheet metal duct, but then again, I don't know what it costs.

On the standard HVAC, I'm worried about sound going from room to room. On the mini split, I'm worried about the noise of the unit in the rooms.

Other Thoughts
Is there anything I really need to be considering in the planning phase? I have Rod's book but there's just so much information in there. I've looked it over twice now. I really wish it had more layout suggestions. I'm not really all that interested in splaying walls because of the cost associated with it. I'd rather get the rooms done and then just treat them by building treatment. In order to get the studio with the rooms I want and all the other things I want, I won't be able to absorb the cost of splaying walls. But I'm going to do what I can to offset that stuff by building slat reso's, hanging bass traps, etc.



Would love some assistance!

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Hey dude, just saw your post. I'm flattered. Yea, I'm all ears. Saw your post over at Johns too. And what I believe is your last plan.

So, what can I do for you? I'm here to help anyway I can.
fitZ

 

[Myriad_Rocker]

Hey dude, just saw your post. I'm flattered. Yea, I'm all ears. Saw your post over at Johns too. And what I believe is your last plan.

So, what can I do for you? I'm here to help anyway I can.
fitZ

Well, I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place on what to do as far as a floor plan. That latest design over at John's has basically been scrapped because I don't feel that it's efficient enough and it also does not incorporate an office. Do you have any layout suggestions based on my info above?

Also, what are your thoughts on the standard HVAC Vs mini split based on my original post?

Like I said, I'm just totally confused. I'm in information overload right now!

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Do you have any layout suggestions based on my info above?

Sure...except I don't like to work on a project of this scope..UNLESS, I know a shitload of info. First off, anytime you are building from the ground up, you're ultimately limited by CODES/permits. Fortunately, the codes actually will limit your design from the getgo, by virtue of ZONING, size, easment, access, and a "myriad" of other limitations. Have you even visited your Building Inspection department for a little info gathering? If so, did they give you any kind of "limitations" sheet or other doc's that might have an impact on your design layout?

You are aware that no matter the design, you'lll have to submit a set of plans to the BID for approval prior to getting a permit arn't you? Which is really why I don't like to waste a bunch of design time. Unless I know your FULL intent, and a bunch of other stuff(like property plan/plat map, adjacency stuff, and anything that impacts the final proposed design that you submit. Electrical comes to mind first off. And BELIEVE ME...the whole permit process can actually be a nightmare if your local BID is anything like it is in Sacramento CA. First off, in Sac county, projects that are aimed at "home business", can really be a stinker.
It implys all sorts of "commercial" code compliance issues..not to mention FEES! I've known people who tried this only to be totally rejected by BID because of TITLE 24...ie...HANDICAP ACCESS! Once you open that can of worms...look out. AND THEN...fire suppression sprinkler system codes...etc etc...geeezus this stuff can get REALLY complcated..UNLESS you know someone who knows the ins/outs of the actual permit/compiance process. ie...a local Architect.

In reality, you might consider hiring an architect to navigate the preliminary EXTERIOR SHELL compliance stage. You might even "discuss" the shell as a shop or something like that...while picking his brain about your "possible" use of the space down the road as a studio..ie...can you finish the INTERIOR SHELL yourself with NO permits etc type discussion. It might be worth a couple of hundred bucks just for a consultation. The fact is Myriad..designing a layout means nothing unless you can get the BID to issue a permit. And for a non-pro, on a forum, thousands of miles from the Permit issuing authority...well, its kind of a no no.

I don't mind fooling around with some layouts and such, but choosing the exterior SHELL building element SYSTEMS, is kind of impossible for a distant non professional. Thats not to say I couldn't offer a ton of ideas..but thats not the same as hiring someone with the actual knowlege of local codes who can ELIMINATE the chaff from the wheat right from the getgo


Anyway, get back to me with some info on this subject, and let me know where you stand as far as BID is concerned. It may turn out you've already done your homework and we can actually accomplish something. In the meantime, I might just toss around some ideas just for drill. But it sure would be nice if I had a plan of your property showing the existing house and where you want to build this project.

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Also, what are your thoughts on the standard HVAC Vs mini split based on my original post?

Well, I haven''t had time to actually read you WHOLE thread yet. Give me a little time and I will. However, I think we need to cover some more important issues first. The HVAC issue is affected by the ultimate design/budget/BID thing. Thats not to say I don't have an opinion. But untill I know some other stuff...I'd be spittin in the wind.

 

[Myriad_Rocker]

Sure...except I don't like to work on a project of this scope..UNLESS, I know a shitload of info. First off, anytime you are building from the ground up, you're ultimately limited by CODES/permits. Fortunately, the codes actually will limit your design from the getgo, by virtue of ZONING, size, easment, access, and a "myriad" of other limitations. Have you even visited your Building Inspection department for a little info gathering? If so, did they give you any kind of "limitations" sheet or other doc's that might have an impact on your design layout?

You are aware that no matter the design, you'lll have to submit a set of plans to the BID for approval prior to getting a permit arn't you? Which is really why I don't like to waste a bunch of design time. Unless I know your FULL intent, and a bunch of other stuff(like property plan/plat map, adjacency stuff, and anything that impacts the final proposed design that you submit. Electrical comes to mind first off. And BELIEVE ME...the whole permit process can actually be a nightmare if your local BID is anything like it is in Sacramento CA. First off, in Sac county, projects that are aimed at "home business", can really be a stinker.
It implys all sorts of "commercial" code compliance issues..not to mention FEES! I've known people who tried this only to be totally rejected by BID because of TITLE 24...ie...HANDICAP ACCESS! Once you open that can of worms...look out. AND THEN...fire suppression sprinkler system codes...etc etc...geeezus this stuff can get REALLY complcated..UNLESS you know someone who knows the ins/outs of the actual permit/compiance process. ie...a local Architect.

In reality, you might consider hiring an architect to navigate the preliminary EXTERIOR SHELL compliance stage. You might even "discuss" the shell as a shop or something like that...while picking his brain about your "possible" use of the space down the road as a studio..ie...can you finish the INTERIOR SHELL yourself with NO permits etc type discussion. It might be worth a couple of hundred bucks just for a consultation. The fact is Myriad..designing a layout means nothing unless you can get the BID to issue a permit. And for a non-pro, on a forum, thousands of miles from the Permit issuing authority...well, its kind of a no no.

I don't mind fooling around with some layouts and such, but choosing the exterior SHELL building element SYSTEMS, is kind of impossible for a distant non professional. Thats not to say I couldn't offer a ton of ideas..but thats not the same as hiring someone with the actual knowlege of local codes who can ELIMINATE the chaff from the wheat right from the getgo


Anyway, get back to me with some info on this subject, and let me know where you stand as far as BID is concerned. It may turn out you've already done your homework and we can actually accomplish something. In the meantime, I might just toss around some ideas just for drill. But it sure would be nice if I had a plan of your property showing the existing house and where you want to build this project.

Wow, lots of good information there, thanks! I knew building codes and stuff would come up at some point. I haven't actually purchased my property yet. I'm toying with the idea of building the house and the studio from the ground up on a big lot in a sub division. I have a builder for this and he would do the whole build out, with my guidance on the studio...which we are actually calling an in-law's quarters in our discussions and for planning purposes.

My other option is to purchase a home that I like on a 1 acre lot or so. Then, build an "in-law" quarters using a builder of my choosing. I was even thinking about just having the builder put up the outside brick structure and let me finish the interior. For that, I think we can call it a "workshop".

There is a huge amount of information on my city's website, although I'm not sure how much is applicable. Here's the link.

I actually kind of sketched out a plan while sitting here at work and I think I'll scan it and upload it to get your opinion on it. It's a pretty hap-hazard drawing, though.

 

[Myriad_Rocker]

Here's my super crude drawing.

The straight lines crossing walls are doors unless noted as windows. The X's are all brick. I didn't do some X's...just forgot but the whole building will be brick.

I have an uncle that is an electrician. He'll probably help me out there. Other than that, the builder will have to run the plumbing and build the shell.

 

[Myriad_Rocker]

I just noticed that there's a third leaf on the front side and right side of the control room. Ignore it. My bad.

 

[Myriad_Rocker]

After some work in SketchUp, I came up with this. HOWEVER, it's nearly 1300 sq ft. I HIGHLY doubt I can afford this...is there anything I could do and still keep what I have? Mainly the office area with the bump out, restroom, control room, live room, and iso booth.

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

After some work in SketchUp, I came up with this. HOWEVER, it's nearly 1300 sq ft. I HIGHLY doubt I can afford this...is there anything I could do and still keep what I have? Mainly the office area with the bump out, restroom, control room, live room, and iso booth.

Sure. Forget the BRICK. Not only is brick HIGHLY expensive, masons are ASTRONOMICALLY expensive. Personally, I would do this. For the exterior shell, use a staggered wall, using 2x6 plates and 2x4 studs, 3/4" OSB exterior shiething with layer of 1x8 cement board siding(caulking all joints). Use Tyvek to wrap the building envelope prior to shiething the exterior. Fill the stud cabitys with R-38 woven between adjacent staggered studs. Use appropriate stud planning to keep the staggered design intact where partition wall framing meets exterior wall. Then shieth the interior with 2 or more layers of 5/8 drywall. I know of some people who've used up to FIVE layers.to get the required TL from their assemblies.
This step alone could save you enough to keep the square footage you need.
Drywall is cheap. A LOT cheaper than brick. The only advantage I see to brick is the mass, however it is ONE EXPENSIVE MASS!! Of course, you won't have the aesthetics of brick...but what is MORE important to you? A brick building without the space you need, or a painted CEMENT BOARD clad building with the same TL using drywall, WITH the space you want.

BTW, I almost have a file finished for you. I'll post it tomorrow. AND, I have a few "tutorial" files almost ready to post as well.

Can you post the .skp file here? If not, pm me and I'll send you my email address so you can send it to me direct.

 

[Myriad_Rocker]

Quick question...instead of painted cement board (you don't EVER see that around where I live) can I have vinyl siding put on the outside of the cement board? The reason I ask is because I'd like for it to match the house. The only reason for my brick on the building was for mass. I didn't know of any other way to get that mass.

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

can I have vinyl siding put on the outside of the cement board? The reason I ask is because I'd like for it to match the house.

Hi Myriad. Well, cement board IS siding. It looks just like beveled siding, has a shiplap joint, and even has an embossed wood grain face. Once painted, it looks just like Beveled wood siding. AND it has the mass of concrete...at least 1/2" thick. More than ply, or real wood siding. Over 5/8" or 3/4" OSB, and with 2 or even three layers of drywall on the interior face of an exterior Staggered Stud wall, I think this will more than do the trick. Especially compared with the cost of material/labor of a brick envelope.

However, this is only my opinion so let me make a disclaimer here. I don't claim to be an expert on Transmission Loss construction. If it were me, I'd run this by Rod Gervais. He might be gracious enough to chime in on it. Remember though, this solution is only as good as all the other weak links associated with it. Doors, seals, windows, ventilation etc. Even with a brick envelope, the other assemblies such as doors would have to MATCH the TL of the brick. AND, you still have ventilation/HVAC issues regardless of the exterior leaf choic. Not only that, I see TWO other considerations.

ONE. I'm no expert on brick construction either, but from my understanding ONE LAYER of brick is NOT stable enough to stand by itself. I'm under the impression that one layer is actually considered a VENEER face, and needs to be tied to an actual STRUCTURE, such as a studwall, or better yet, a CONCRETE BLOCK wall, which would REALLY be expensive. No matter, the brick has to be physically TIED to the structure(becomes "one leaf"). Which means direct structural transmission. Therefore, any interior mass and the slab, would have to be DECOUPLED..which means even more expense.

TWO. Not only that, but consider the concrete foundation footing that a brickclad/concrete block wall would require. sheeezus, How deep are your pockets? that whole scenario could cost a fortune...at least in my book. Not to mention rebar in the block/footing construction. Here is what I mean..

Anyway, hope that illustrates my point.

ps..got yer skp. file. I'll be back.

 

[Myriad_Rocker]

Wow...I had no idea this was going to get that expensive!!!! I'd like to keep the entire studio build at or under 90k. That's including electrical, HVAC, plumbing, acoustic treatment, etc. And I wouldn't mind having about 5 to 10k left over for some new tasty gear treats.

So...if I were to go with a shell that was placed on the concrete slab that had an outer shell of cement board...with the 2x6 plate staggered stud walls on the inside of that, I'd be alright there? On the staggered studs, put about 2 or 3 layers of 5/8 or 3/4 drywall?

Is OSB the stuff that will be between the cement board and the stud wall?

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

So...if I were to go with a shell that was placed on the concrete slab that had an outer shell of cement board...with the 2x6 plate staggered stud walls on the inside of that, I'd be alright there?

Yes, with OSB between the Cement Siding and the studs. Doin't forget Tyvek House Wrap completely wrapped around the framing envelope prior to cladding it with the OSB.
Couple of other things I might mention. One, you might want to pour the foundation footing SEPERATE from the slab, with a thicker perimeter edge under the slab. A 1/2" expansion gap between the footing and slab should work, and they make an expansion joint filler that is placed on the inside face of the footing prior to pouring the slab. However, this all has to be approved by BID.

In fact, I'll draw this up and run it by Rod and see if he salutes. Hang in there, still working on it. There is a ton of stuff to include in this file.
I'd like to keep the entire studio build at or under

I'd like to keep the entire studio build at or under 90k. That's including electrical, HVAC, plumbing, acoustic treatment, etc. And I wouldn't mind having about 5 to 10k left over for some new tasty gear treats.

90k? One way to keep costs down is to have a COMPLETE plan, with everything worked out with all the hardware, electrical, HVAC, plumbing and concrete specs with schedules and approved prior to getting bids. Are you planning on doing any of this work yourself?

Two. The roof assembly. I'm working on it right now. Remember, thats a good portion of the overall cost.

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

btw, heres a few things I'm trying to fit into your plan

 

[Myriad_Rocker]

Good God, man. That looks expensive!!!!!!!!!

 

[Myriad_Rocker]

90k?

Is that not enough????

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Is that not enough????

Why? I built my soffets for $120 in materials. You just gotta get smart with building. You gotta have a cieling, walls and a floor. So what if their angled? And the slab is raised in the back. No glass, just a LCD...which nowdays is WAYYYY cheaper than thick glass. And so on and so on. Whats gonna be expensive is the slab, roof, framing insulation, siding, HVAC and plumblng. You were planning on that anyway.. Interior design stuff looks WAYYYY more expensive than it really is. Some fabric, carpet, laminate flooring, 703, a little wood trim(which you can cut from 1/2" MDF and paint) etc etc. VOILA! Interior design!!

My soffets only took 2 sheets of 3/4" utility plywood, 2 sheets of prefinished 1/2" Poplar Plywood, 12 8' 2x4's, and the insulation, which was 3 bags of loose R-19, which I found in the back of a building supply place, unwrapped and dirty. Got it for 1/4 price. When you've been a DIYer as long as I have, you learn how to cut corners, dumpsterdive, negotiate and DESIGN on a DIME! I'll show you how.

 

[Rod Gervais]

Is that not enough????

That all depends on your needs.......... I have a client in Brooklyn NY who just spent roughly 75,000 for a pro quality control room and iso booth in his home (for doing mix-downs he takes home from the studio) and the 2 rooms are only 335 s.f.. And this did NOT include any gear of the wiring thereof.......

Also, he did not have to build an outer shell - it already existed........

So it quiclky becomes a matter of what are your true needs (forget desires) and (once you know that) what exactly has to be done to meet those needs.........

Right now we have no where near enough information to answer the question of costs........

rOD

 

[Myriad_Rocker]

I'm guessing that cost will also vary based on where you live. Cost of living is quite a deal lower here than, say, Los Angeles.

Additionally, I'd love to give all the information necessary to establish a baseline for cost. I'm learning as I go. As hard as I can, I'm trying to soak up all this information. It's a bit like walking in the dark, but I'm starting to see some light!