First time 'studio' - newbie questions

[Jadin]

Hey guys, thanks for the newbie forum :>
I finally have my own room to mess around with a sort of studio idea, so I'm looking to start exploring music composition on a pretty limited budget. For now my only goal is to be able to piece together songs just in a computer/DAW environment. I'd like to have some kind of recording setup in the future, but for now due to low budget and little performance abilities, I'm content with just exploring music theory/composition with whatever sounds I can get from my computer. I've done a little research (read home studio acoustics book and read forums for a few weeks) but with so much information out there it still feels like I don't know anything :x

I'll start out with the few things I have:
-Desktop PC with esi Juli@ audio card (I think this is good? It has low latency and balanced outputs, and I'd rely on this for my sounds)
-Casio PX-130 digital piano and m-audio keystation 49es (the casio is slow/clunky/loud and the m-audio is light and cheap, but they should work fine as inputs for now)
-an untreated room

The biggest reason I'm making this post is that I need some starting studio monitors. Birthday is next month and I could probably get away with getting the monitors that I was looking at, a pair of Behringer Truth 1031a. At least that would max out my budget, and I could try some cheap room treatment methods (idk maybe some pillows until I could build a couple traps) for now.
Before, I tried playing around with a reason demo on logitech computer speakers but lots of things I'd try to do would get static sounds that the speakers probably couldn't handle. Would the B1031a be a good starting point or should I be looking at something else?

I also have a sony stereo receiver and subwoofer (SA-W3000), but neither have balanced inputs/outputs so I'm not sure if they'd be relevant in a studio situation? Not sure if I should just sell these and have a little more money for something else. Pairing a sub and spending a little less on tweeters could maybe save money on my first monitor purchase but something tells me they might not sound as clean. I'm also thinking about selling the keyboards I have and just getting a good master keyboard, and possibly a BCF2000/BCR2000 to make it a little more fun and hands-on, and less mouse-clicking everything.

I doubt I'll ever play live and budget is a concern, so I'm not too worried about having top of the line equipment, just something that will get me through until I learn how to fully use a DAW. Low latency and low noise/clean sound are my biggest priorities.

I also recently bought an old yamaha dtx drumkit and a cheap electric guitar, but I doubt I'd incorporate them into any recordings until I learn how to play them...

Anyway huge thanks in advance for any input on the monitors and keyboard/usb midi control ideas! I think I'll be less overwhelmed if I can get past this first setup step.

edit:
forgot to mention, but if I end up getting those monitors or anything else with xlr, are the trs-xlr cables at monoprice good enough cables to use with them? Or should I go for a higher quality cable? (I'd link but unable to until 10 posts)

 

[ecc83]

Hi Jardin,
Phew! I don't know how you got to that equipment list but it is a weird one!

Nothing actually wrong with it, I have heard that the Juli@ is a fine soundcard but not, IMHO the way to go.

You need a simple Audio Interface. It seems you will play alone? If so a two input device will suffice and one that is getting a good rep' atmo is the Steinberg UR22 (it also has MIDI, more on that later) The UR22 has two XLR mic inputs but they can also be line inputs to take a synth or high impedance ins for a guitar (you might never be Jeff Beck but learning a chord or two or a riff to lay down is not that hard). The AI comes with Cubase DAW so that takes care of software for a looooong time!

Behringer monitors? I wouldn't. Bees make fair to middling mixers and such but transducers? Look at "proper" people such as KRK, Adam, Tannoy, Genlec. You have a Sony Hi Fi system? That will do for now (but turn the sub off!) .

Other than mic leads you do not need balanced connections in the confined space that is the home studio you are very unlikely to suffer any hum problems (that would be cured by a balanced system anyway) .

MIDI: You mentioned an electronic drum kit? That probably comes out on MIDI DIN. You need to trigger sounds to record and a modest keyboard controller will suffice here. I have an Evolution Ekeys 49. Obsolete now but there is an M-Audio product very similar.

Hope this helps a bit. Talk more soon? (lunch!)

Dave.

 

[Jadin]

Thanks for the response :> but I have a bunch more questions for most things you mentioned...
I'll mention monitors first because it's most important step I think.
Honestly most of those are out of my price range, but I could afford a pair of the KRK rokit 6 within price range. ($400 or less). Would these be better than the b. truth monitors? I wish we had a music store here so I could compare in person.
I was a little surprised that I could use the Sony Receiver still. I guess I was thinking about selling the surround system and sub as a whole (maybe get $150 for it? ) and use that money towards the budget for the speakers(or maybe for the akai mini mentioned later). If I used the receiver, would I use passive speakers with that?

The other part is - can you elaborate more on why Juli@ is not as good? I bought it over a usb interface because I heard pci was slightly better (a few ms) for latency than USB.
I also don't really know the difference between using a built-in line in with preamp like the UR22 vs. something like the existing Juli@ and a separate guitar amp or preamp. Actually, probably a reason I overlooked something like that is that I was thinking about buying a dedicated preamp sometime later on, when I buy a mic with it and actually have room for a recording area. If I'm not looking to record audio for maybe a year, do I still need something like this?

Also yeah, haha I probably didn't need to mention the drum kit (or the guitar). I actually was thinking about buying an akai mpk mini and modding the pads, and I'd probably be more comfortable just using that as a drum controller until I learn to keep a good beat on the drumkit :>

 

[ecc83]

The Sony Receiver will make a serviceable monitoring amplifier (model please)
.
Yes you will need some passive speakers for it. Actual passive monitors are a bit of a rarity theses days but Tannoy have them. Otherwise, fairly compact hi fi speakers of a well known brand would suite. KEF, B&W, Rogers. The Wharfedale Diamonds had a good rep' some years ago. Passive speakers of good make tend to last a very long time and so are a pretty safe bet from the Evil bay!

I did NOT say the Juli@ was inferior in any way to a usb interface! You are probably right, it will beat most external AIs for latency. I was not aware that you had already bought it. No harm, you just need a device to control/route the inputs. This could be a microphone pre amp but you really need one that has line inputs as well (that is; mic-OR-line) and a high impedance input for guitar. The obvious alternative is a mixer (shut up at the back!).

I actually "evolved" much the same structure as you are heading for. I have an Allen and Heath ZED10fx mixer feeding an M-Audio 2496 PCI card. The mixer would probably be very suited to your needs. The pre amps are clean and there is plenty of connectivity. Two of the line inputs are hi Z (10meg no less!) and so will handle guitar and bass very well, but everything else as well! Balanced main outs (to the Juli@) and monitor outs on RCA, just the job for feeding the Sony.

Dave.

 

[Jadin]

I see, I guess my first post is a little ambiguous with what I already have. I edited it :>

The Sony model is STR-DE895. You think this paired with a couple of Tannoy 601p is an improvement over even Behringer Truth 3031a or KRK Rokit 6?

Also does magnetic shielding matter in both passive and active speakers if I would have them right next to computer monitor?

Oh and one last thing - would there be any extra delay in audio from extra processing in the sony receiver over the active monitors? I played games with it before and it felt like audio was slightly delayed - but I'm not sure if that's from any 'enhancements' or anything the receiver might be doing vs. just amplifying the signal in general.

Thanks again for these tips!

 

[ecc83]

I see, I guess my first post is a little ambiguous with what I already have. I edited it :>

The Sony model is STR-DE895. You think this paired with a couple of Tannoy 601p is an improvement over even Behringer Truth 3031a or KRK Rokit 6?

Also does magnetic shielding matter in both passive and active speakers if I would have them right next to computer monitor?

Oh and one last thing - would there be any extra delay in audio from extra processing in the sony receiver over the active monitors? I played games with it before and it felt like audio was slightly delayed - but I'm not sure if that's from any 'enhancements' or anything the receiver might be doing vs. just amplifying the signal in general.

Thanks again for these tips!

I would bet on a Tannoy monitor as being more accurate than either of the others you have mentioned, been "at it" a long time have Tees!

Since the Sony will only be delivering power to the front two channels* its rated power output of 100W is right on the money for the Tannoys.

Shielded magnet speakers were only needed because of old CRT TV and monitor tubes.

Any delay you experienced with gaming was almost certainly down to the sound card.

*You might, in the future, be able to use the rear channels to drive a pair of "grott boxes" but leave us not get ahead of uselves!

Dave.

 

[Jadin]

Awesome, thanks soo much for this info, I'm feeling much more confident with the setup
Plus saving a little money with the passive monitors (paired tannoy 601p for $250 instead of $400-500 for actives), I can afford to buy more supplies for room treatment :> Looking forward to it now

The delay in gaming was straight from playstation 2 optical out but in retrospect I think it could have been the 5.1/PLII/dolby digital stuff causing delay rather than straight to stereo. I hope so anyway

ok so just a couple last questions and I think everything else I can find out on my own.

-the only microphone I have is a Blue Microphones Eyeball 2.0 condenser mic with webcam thing. Would I be able to use this to measure for room treatment, or should I get the radioshack 'digital sound level meter', or some other option? I have an idea of where the bass traps/wall panels are supposed to go - I'm not sure if I would know how to compensate with any changes if I get a bad measurement somewhere. Or maybe compensate with settings on the sony receiver somehow...

-I read about a couple people using a sub with the tannoys with a low cutoff, maybe 80-100hz... you said to leave the sub off, is that for mixing only or in general? Still have lots to learn, but I have an idea that people want the sub off because they want the bass to be clean/clear without the sub - so that if the listener has extra bass added from a car or other sub, it wouldn't be too muddy or something? Not entirely sure.

-Grott boxes = any old speakers just to have a different perspective on the mixing? I do have some older onkyo speakers from the surround setup (does it really matter if they say 'surround right' or 'front left' etc?), but I think they had the same staticky problem when playing around as the logitech computer speakers.

 

[Xntryk1]

Any home receiver built today has specs that far distance the human ear in quality or ability to detect any distortion, and have no delay whatsoever. Your subwoofer should be turned off for mixing for sure, but use it for your own enjoyment of course! Remember some receivers must be set up again to send bass freq. to the mains if you have no sub. And make sure the receiver has NO processing. Sony home theater comes with the veritable dozen room sounds that color the sound way too much. You want pure stereo. No sub. No extra bass unless you are doing dubstep and the like. Be careful. Home speakers will NEVER sound like the car, and two bassy songs in the house can be WAY different outside in the car due to BASS HARMONICS and BASS PROCESSING. That might be an area of research for you...
The weakest link in any home, studio, or any other audio setup at all will be speakers. The specs for today's Superstore Stereos are way better than the human ear can perceive and monitor speaker can compete with. So it will boil down to monitor. AGAIN, yes a name brand monitor will probably sound better but with room coloration they ALL will have non perfect reproduction. Perfection certainly does not exist. So get the best you can afford for NOW and work with them. BTW I am not sure what the question about active vs passive is all about. Active would mean the Sony amp is a moot point? Don't buy active speakers at all if you are using the Sony. What would be the point there exactly? Added expense for sure...
One thing you will notice in your little room studio will be sounds from the background. You thought you lived in a quiet neighborhood didn't you? Then what's all that noise when you listen on headphones? Use a good gate [ooops. A gate is a plugin that would drop out the lowest sounds on the track for your vocals the when the sound of your voice drops in volume. A good one set up correctly will be hard to detect but make your room sound much quieter due to inter-aural masking of the lowest background noise when you ARE singing... ] on your mic input and you will be happier. Used correctly and your room sound will be awesome going in. And yes you will want to record your vocals and even instruments on good headphones. Never on the speakers in the room. There is much to tell you but just get recording!