First sound from the new space
- Thread starter SouthSIDE Glen
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SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
Well, it's getting late here and I'm about to crash, so any further conversation will have to wait until sometime tomorrow. I could maybe tomorrow show some screenshots of L/R energy distribution, RMS, and cloud metering as well as envelope reading statistics for the whole file. Maybe I will just for "clinic" purposes, but frankly all the waveform displays and metering and measurements in the world, combined with a couple of dollars will get us a cup of McCoffee on this one.
I just find it interesting that I have gotten about an equal number of responses across the spectrum from people who I consider pretty trust worthy (including you) that, when they thought there was an imbalance, are pretty much equal between leaning left, leaning right.
Personally, I can get my ears to hear and agree with any one of those answers depending upon what I am disposed to hear.
G,
I just find it interesting that I have gotten about an equal number of responses across the spectrum from people who I consider pretty trust worthy (including you) that, when they thought there was an imbalance, are pretty much equal between leaning left, leaning right.
Personally, I can get my ears to hear and agree with any one of those answers depending upon what I am disposed to hear.
G,
I'm not in a spot where I can listen right now, but if I remember I'll give you time markers on what I was talking about. It didn't sound to me like any issue with the recording space. I suppose it could be a reverb artifact, but I've never heard anything like that on a verb. There were some definite "unnatural sounding vocal inflections" much like you hear with autotune. As I say, when I can listen again, I'll give you some time markers on what I'm talking about.
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
Fair enough. I'm not sure if you caught this in a subsequent post or not, but there are some subtle backup vocals doubling the main vocal in selected lines of the choruses. I suspect maybe that's what you're catching. But we'll see; let me know when you got some time markers and we'll take a look.
G.
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
Respectfully (and definitely NOT wanting to turn this into a forum thing
) my eyes and ears are telling me something quite different.Yes, there are time when the balance shifts right. There are also times when it shifts left. It's a dynamic mix in that regard (which I like), but overall, the dynamics average out pretty centered. That's how I hear it as a whole production.
And, frankly the numbers and the eyes back that up. Here is a series of screenshots that I montaged using Sound Forge and Elemental Audio's Inspector as the analysis tools. I could have also included a few other analysis tools that I looked at and back this all up, too, but this should be nough to illustrate the point.
The top screenshot shows the overall measurements for the whole song, broken down by channel. I highlighted the RMS energy measurements, which not only are virtually even between the two channels, but actually give a very slight advantage to the left channel. That advantage of one tenth of a dB is negligable, of coursse, but it does show that any bias towards the right would be a localized efect and not part of the overall character of the song.
Below that show four different ~3-4 second slices of the song that I picked semi-randomly. Random in every way other than I purposely tried picking generally representative spots; the first where the majority production arrangement steps in (intentionally after the parts where mostly all that's there is the vocal and the Rhodes, all on the left), two from different verses where the full arrangement is going, and one during the final intermissiive.
I let the chips fall where they may as far as measurements went; i.e. I did not purposely pick spots that I thought specifically backed me up; I just highlighted some spots quickly, ran the tests, and printed them, letting the numbers tell their own story.
Each test segment is highlighted on the waveform. The three sets of numbers indicate the start/stop position of the sample, and the sample's total length in seconds. Then there is the blue/red L/R energy distibution/balance meter showing the actual left/right balance during that segment, and then a set of dBFS meters for that segment. The thin outside meters indicate the RMS levels.
Notice that all four segments are fairly close to centered. Any dynamic mix will of course bounce around, but should usually hover pretty close to center. That's just what's happening here. Samples 2 and 3 do show a bit of a lean to the right, sure, but not a lot. Besides, samples 1 and 4 show similar leans to the left, indicating the overall truth that there really is not a preference to left or right in the song overall. Note also that two of the four RMS readings slightly weigh left, one slightly weighs right, and one is practically a dead heat. Yet more parity in the numbers.
G.
joeym
New member
Nice to see you here, Glenn.
Very nice clear recording, although pretty much emphasised in the highs. Very noticable with the "s" words. The drums seemed a bit distant to me and the snare could use some more fullness. These are naturally my impressions heard on my equipment, which is definitely inferior to yours. The voice is immaculate and wonderfully recorded. Overall though, a beautiful sound and I'm sure once you've gotten your ears used to the new space, stuff will sound even better. Hope to see you here more often.
Joey
Very nice clear recording, although pretty much emphasised in the highs. Very noticable with the "s" words. The drums seemed a bit distant to me and the snare could use some more fullness. These are naturally my impressions heard on my equipment, which is definitely inferior to yours. The voice is immaculate and wonderfully recorded. Overall though, a beautiful sound and I'm sure once you've gotten your ears used to the new space, stuff will sound even better. Hope to see you here more often.
Joey
squibble94
Nature of Force
Nice song. I think the hi hat's high frequencies are a bit harsh. Take some of them down. The song is lacking bass in the beginning. Otherwise, great production.
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
Thnaks for the good words and the suggestions, Joey.
But, frankly,I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you about finding me here more often. I just don't get the whole point of it. Maybe if one just wants to personally show off or wants a thinly veiled way to advertise or sell their stuff to the undefended public, but I'm neither in need of, nor interested in, either one of those motivations.I only posted the song here because I got tired of individually notifying the fairly large number of folks who had requested to hear the results of the new studio construction. Well, guys, you got what you asked for.
G.
joeym
New member
Thnaks for the good words and the suggestions, Joey.
I only posted the song here because I got tired of individually notifying the fairly large number of folks who had requested to hear the results of the new studio construction. Well, guys, you got what you asked for.
G.
The point of it for me is listening to some great music, instead of turning on the shit on the radio. But I'm a musician first (and an "audio engineer" MAYBE later......
). Last thing I ever wanna do is show off.....and I get helped a lot by the more experienced guys here. But of course everybody's free to do what they want.
mixmkr
we don't need rest!!
also, the point of it for me is how it generates topics like the one I brought up and any follow up discussion why people might interprete things differently.
Honestly..everyone we both know has an opinion. I like to sort out ones that might carry more weight, but frankly, when a musically uneducated 15 year old tells me they either like or don't like a song and TRY to point out their reasons, a lot can be learned from that too.
Pats on the back, especially on the internet for song files I agree is a lame pursuit. However, I think you are really missing the point in the MP3 clinic for many, many other reasons.
Why are some people so obsessed in telling us about OC703 fiberboard over and over again? Why not post a great mix?...if you think it is good?
I personally LIKE the fact that you're getting most of the favorable comments on the vocals, yet you claim minimalistic efforts and IMO, a "bottom-feeder" mic.
TO ME, a good example of what goes into the mic, versus what kind of mic... that's what's important. And it takes ears to realize that...no spec sheets.
I'd REPEAT the above paragraph...but just read it TWICE instead!!
Honestly..everyone we both know has an opinion. I like to sort out ones that might carry more weight, but frankly, when a musically uneducated 15 year old tells me they either like or don't like a song and TRY to point out their reasons, a lot can be learned from that too.
Pats on the back, especially on the internet for song files I agree is a lame pursuit. However, I think you are really missing the point in the MP3 clinic for many, many other reasons.
Why are some people so obsessed in telling us about OC703 fiberboard over and over again? Why not post a great mix?...if you think it is good?
I personally LIKE the fact that you're getting most of the favorable comments on the vocals, yet you claim minimalistic efforts and IMO, a "bottom-feeder" mic.
TO ME, a good example of what goes into the mic, versus what kind of mic... that's what's important. And it takes ears to realize that...no spec sheets.
I'd REPEAT the above paragraph...but just read it TWICE instead!!
mixmkr
we don't need rest!!
But looking at your SF files, they seem dominant, volume wize, too.. (on the right) just like my Adobe .wav file screen shots. Not by much, but by that little bit.
But in the end, I'm confident you use your ears and could just put tape over any meters anyway.... Just like I would hope to do also.
But, THIS example helps me make sure my "system" isn't off kilter too. I have something to compare against.
oh... and you're wrong too!! ha! Great tune Glen...really. GOOD job.
But in the end, I'm confident you use your ears and could just put tape over any meters anyway.... Just like I would hope to do also.
But, THIS example helps me make sure my "system" isn't off kilter too. I have something to compare against.
oh... and you're wrong too!! ha! Great tune Glen...really. GOOD job.
mixmkr
we don't need rest!!
and I'll respect your wishes and NOT turn this into a forum thing.... But one last comment please.
I DO think your choices of picking the .wav files were poor. Look at the VERY last section after the break (starting around the 3 min mark to the end of the song). That entire section of the .wav file is clearly "louder" in the right, as the .wav file is noticeably larger in that channel. Sections of dominate keys will be the opposite, since they are postitioned, primary to the left. (as seen in your other choices...either random or not).
Anyrate, again I trust my ears, and was initially worried my system was skewed to one side, but am confirming it isn't. I think all your "golden ear" friends are deaf on one side!!
(kinda a joke, but I am serious... but not about being 'deaf' lol!! )
thanks again for posting the tune.
I DO think your choices of picking the .wav files were poor. Look at the VERY last section after the break (starting around the 3 min mark to the end of the song). That entire section of the .wav file is clearly "louder" in the right, as the .wav file is noticeably larger in that channel. Sections of dominate keys will be the opposite, since they are postitioned, primary to the left. (as seen in your other choices...either random or not).
Anyrate, again I trust my ears, and was initially worried my system was skewed to one side, but am confirming it isn't. I think all your "golden ear" friends are deaf on one side!!
(kinda a joke, but I am serious... but not about being 'deaf' lol!! )
thanks again for posting the tune.
mixmkr
we don't need rest!!
and one last comment... sorry
You don't find any of these audio comments worth listening too? Lack of bass, harsh high end.. autotune sounding effects...etc?
Yeah, I trust MYSELF first, but when you get more than one comment echo-ing others, you might take a LITTLE notice... especially if you're dealing with new surroundings.
You don't find any of these audio comments worth listening too? Lack of bass, harsh high end.. autotune sounding effects...etc?
Yeah, I trust MYSELF first, but when you get more than one comment echo-ing others, you might take a LITTLE notice... especially if you're dealing with new surroundings.
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
Well, I guess one of the lessons others can gain from this is how one cannot tell as much as they think they can from looking at a waveform timeline display, any more than they can by looking at an FFT, especially when the waveform display is zoomed out as far as both of us did with our respective editors. When all the waves get bunched together into solid shapes because of the zoom factor, it can lead to misleading inferences. Rememeber those are not really solid shapes, but rather a single, one-dimensional line.
The right side is going to look louder under those conditions, even if everything else is equal, simply from the preponderance of snare and hi hat peaks on that side. Yet, when one actually performs a real analysis on the waveform in the form of left/right energy distribution and RMS measurements, one sees that areas like the end of that break that so "obviously" look tilted to the right, are in fact, not.
Check out the "Zero crossings" measurement for the entire song at the top of the graphic I posted. That is the only stat that is weighted to the right. That's because that's where the preponderance of percussive AC transients are located. That's what's making that right waveform look slightly fatter. Yet the RMS for the whole song is basically a dead heat between the channels, with actually a (very) slight advantage given to the left side.
The other thing that IMHO needs to be learned from this is that everybody hears things differently and *prefers* to hear things differently, and also puts different values on different aspects of the recording process and gear. You hear the song tilted to the right, Tom V. (just for one) hears the song tilted to the left. I personally hear a song with a dynamic arrangement that has some elements and passages that may skew left here and in this manner and right there and in that manner, but overall has a pretty good balance. Not perfect - there's no such thing as perfect - but at least in a way that makes sense.
The fact is the vocals are up front in the song, and instead of just piling them on dead center along with everything else, they and the Rhodes provide a more or less complimentary balance to the rest of the arrangement. Not on a beat-by-beat or measure-by-measure basis, no, but most certainly on an overall portraiture basis, yes. This balance is not only audible to those who don't expect everything to be neat and tidy LCR mixes, but is wholly quantifiable and verifiable in the RMS and energy balance measurements.
Does this make you or I or Tom or anybody else right or wrong? No. There's no such thing in this case. It's a matter of personal perception. You are right according to your preferences, I am right according to mine, and Tom and everyone else are right to the way they think and hear as well.
This is (just) one of the reasons why a "clinic" in the form of public critique has very little meaning, and why I rarely critique other people's mixes on this BBS. My opinion on someone else's mix in that regard is of no more value than anyone else's - all our critiques have close to zero value to anybody but ourselves - so there's no point in expressing it.
And that's the last I have to say on the subject. You can have the last word if you want, but after that, this thread gets locked. For people who want to hear the song, the URL is posted, the thread doesn't have to be unlocked to read that. But arguing over what one person hears and another person doesn't serves no purpose other than to attract cavemen to the dustup.
G.
The right side is going to look louder under those conditions, even if everything else is equal, simply from the preponderance of snare and hi hat peaks on that side. Yet, when one actually performs a real analysis on the waveform in the form of left/right energy distribution and RMS measurements, one sees that areas like the end of that break that so "obviously" look tilted to the right, are in fact, not.
Check out the "Zero crossings" measurement for the entire song at the top of the graphic I posted. That is the only stat that is weighted to the right. That's because that's where the preponderance of percussive AC transients are located. That's what's making that right waveform look slightly fatter. Yet the RMS for the whole song is basically a dead heat between the channels, with actually a (very) slight advantage given to the left side.
The other thing that IMHO needs to be learned from this is that everybody hears things differently and *prefers* to hear things differently, and also puts different values on different aspects of the recording process and gear. You hear the song tilted to the right, Tom V. (just for one) hears the song tilted to the left. I personally hear a song with a dynamic arrangement that has some elements and passages that may skew left here and in this manner and right there and in that manner, but overall has a pretty good balance. Not perfect - there's no such thing as perfect - but at least in a way that makes sense.
The fact is the vocals are up front in the song, and instead of just piling them on dead center along with everything else, they and the Rhodes provide a more or less complimentary balance to the rest of the arrangement. Not on a beat-by-beat or measure-by-measure basis, no, but most certainly on an overall portraiture basis, yes. This balance is not only audible to those who don't expect everything to be neat and tidy LCR mixes, but is wholly quantifiable and verifiable in the RMS and energy balance measurements.
Does this make you or I or Tom or anybody else right or wrong? No. There's no such thing in this case. It's a matter of personal perception. You are right according to your preferences, I am right according to mine, and Tom and everyone else are right to the way they think and hear as well.
This is (just) one of the reasons why a "clinic" in the form of public critique has very little meaning, and why I rarely critique other people's mixes on this BBS. My opinion on someone else's mix in that regard is of no more value than anyone else's - all our critiques have close to zero value to anybody but ourselves - so there's no point in expressing it.
And that's the last I have to say on the subject. You can have the last word if you want, but after that, this thread gets locked. For people who want to hear the song, the URL is posted, the thread doesn't have to be unlocked to read that. But arguing over what one person hears and another person doesn't serves no purpose other than to attract cavemen to the dustup.
G.
mixmkr
we don't need rest!!
PoeticIntensity
MagicJones.com (is a website)
Thanks for sharing, Glen. Some very good stuff there. I like the shaker(s) part(s) the best. Making them sound nice and round, with no shrillness at all.
I love this clinic. I've learned more in here than I ever have about how to record audio. Great ears, great opinions, and suggestions.
Thanks again for sharing. Vocal butter right there.
I love this clinic. I've learned more in here than I ever have about how to record audio. Great ears, great opinions, and suggestions.
Thanks again for sharing. Vocal butter right there.
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
Well, I've pretty much covered most of that already; it's very comfortable to work in and generally good-sounding even if we do still have a little acoustic fine tuning to do in the live room. That is pretty much expected, though; you have to live in a space before you can fine tune it.How do you like the new studio so far? Good things? Bad things? Do tell
Best of all, I'm working with a team of guys who are all really good at what they do. Which is lucky, otherwise I could never put up with a couple of them being hard-core Cubs fans and putting the damn game on the TV (sound off, of course). But I guess no one is perfect
.There will be more on the design and construction of the studio coming up in the next few weeks on my website.
Thanks to everybody with the compliments on the track, and also thanks to everybody providing their critique. Regardless of what I do say about this clinic, I know that it's all different in the spirit and intentions of help and cooperation, which in itself is a good thing.
G.
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