First Ribbon Mic?

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Shadow_7

Shadow_7

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I'm wanting to get a ribbon mic. I'd like one that doesn't need a mod or transformer upgrade to sound great. Something in the $100 to $200 range. Ultimately I'd like to get a stereo pair of Cascade FatHead II's with transformer upgrade. But I'm wanting something to get my feet wet, to see if a ribbon mic is something I even want. The Cascade Victor seems like something along those lines, but it doesn't seem that there's much difference spec wise between it and the Vin-Jet. And a Vin-Jet with transformer upgrade is more than half of a pair of FH II's.

Any recommendations? Can anyone actually tell me the differences between a Vin-Jet and Victor? Or have any sample sound clips using either of them? Or know of other make/model mics I should consider. I would kind of like to get a Cascade so I can get a fell for their quality and see if it is something I want to invest in. But I'm mainly wanting something that works well with Trombone and Brass Ensembles in general.
 
Shadow_7 said:
I'm wanting to get a ribbon mic. I'd like one that doesn't need a mod or transformer upgrade to sound great. Something in the $100 to $200 range. Ultimately I'd like to get a stereo pair of Cascade FatHead II's with transformer upgrade. But I'm wanting something to get my feet wet, to see if a ribbon mic is something I even want. The Cascade Victor seems like something along those lines, but it doesn't seem that there's much difference spec wise between it and the Vin-Jet. And a Vin-Jet with transformer upgrade is more than half of a pair of FH II's.
Click to expand...

Wait and see if any folks sell their ACM ribbons after the group buy. If they really are 2 micron ribbons, then all they need is a transformer upgrade. (I would suggest the Lundahl LL2912, available from K&K Audio in the U.S.)

Doing the transformer upgrade takes all of about fifteen minutes for somebody with essentially no electronics skill whatsoever. I figure maybe three minutes if you've ever actually resoldered a wire on a bad cable, and most of that time is typically spent unscrewing screws to get the body open. :D

I could be wrong, but IMHO, the Vin-Jet looks like it would have really bad reflections inside the head. I would expect the headbasket to create a really harsh presence peak the likes of which have not been seen in anything above a $15 Chinese LDC. When looking for an open sound, you should be looking for an exposed element with minimal mesh (and no solid bars of any kind between you and the element), not one with the element hidden behind a bloody cheese grater.... Unless "open" means "hyped", I just can't see how this could possibly sound "open" by any stretch of the imagination. (MsHilarious, Michael Joly, et al, any thoughts?)

If you're going to buy a mic that's pre-upgraded, the Fat Head II looks like a good choice, IMHO, but I haven't used one, so I can't say for sure.

P.S. I just saw the ZZounds reviews for the Nady RSM-2. I recognized both of them. I wrote one (I'm the washer guy), and I'm 99% certain that Michael Joly wrote the other. Yikes, talk about a small world. :D
 
there's always the original fathead...sonically the same as the FHII, but a bit cheaper and uglier
 
Ironklad Audio said:
there's always the original fathead...sonically the same as the FHII, but a bit cheaper and uglier
Click to expand...

I've thought of going that route, but since I'm ultimately gonna get a pair of FH II's(in all likelyhood), that would leave me with basically three of the same mic. Not much use for that, since I'm only recording myself at the moment. And I'm not likely to be playing more than one trombone at a time. Not that I wouldn't try to on occassion.
 
dgatwood said:
I could be wrong, but IMHO, the Vin-Jet looks like it would have really bad reflections inside the head. I would expect the headbasket to create a really harsh presence peak the likes of which have not been seen in anything above a $15 Chinese LDC. When looking for an open sound, you should be looking for an exposed element with minimal mesh (and no solid bars of any kind between you and the element), not one with the element hidden behind a bloody cheese grater.... Unless "open" means "hyped", I just can't see how this could possibly sound "open" by any stretch of the imagination. (MsHilarious, Michael Joly, et al, any thoughts?)
Click to expand...

Cheese grater . . . I like that :D

But I don't know. I'm not really a ribbon guy. Those holes are pretty big; the mesh behind is much finer. I doubt the cheese grater does too much, physically or acoustically, other than look ugly. The rest of the basket . . . and the "acoustic treatment in the body", I would have a closer look at that.

I should measure the effect of my Shure 315's grille; that's practically a wall of metal. I stripped off the silk and the inner screens long ago. They REALLY used to clamp down hard on air movement around the ribbon; there was no concern for preserving HF response at all.

The 315 does one clever thing though; it has a variable impedance transformer, which tempts me to throw in a high-impedance active buffer . . . right after I reribbon it :o
 
So what mics like high SPL's? My AT4033a is too easy to max out, if it's within three feet of the end of the bell of my Bass Trombone. Playing at an outdoor mezzo-forte pretty much maxes that mic out. I was sort of drawn to the Victor and then Vin-Jet because it boasts of a 165dB SPL tollerance. So if I want the mic in close proximity to help compensate for an untreated room, I feel that one of those might suit my needs.
 
Shadow_7 said:
So what mics like high SPL's? My AT4033a is too easy to max out, if it's within three feet of the end of the bell of my Bass Trombone. Playing at an outdoor mezzo-forte pretty much maxes that mic out. I was sort of drawn to the Victor and then Vin-Jet because it boasts of a 165dB SPL tollerance. So if I want the mic in close proximity to help compensate for an untreated room, I feel that one of those might suit my needs.
Click to expand...

I don't see the specs on the AT site for the 4033a, but the current 4033 is listed at 155dBSPL with the pad on. If you're at 155dBSPL three feet from your trombone . . . I just don't know what to say about that :eek:

Are you sure it's not your preamp that is clipping?
 
Horn mics

Shadow_7 said:
So what mics like high SPL's? My AT4033a is too easy to max out, if it's within three feet of the end of the bell of my Bass Trombone. Playing at an outdoor mezzo-forte pretty much maxes that mic out. I was sort of drawn to the Victor and then Vin-Jet because it boasts of a 165dB SPL tollerance. So if I want the mic in close proximity to help compensate for an untreated room, I feel that one of those might suit my needs.
Click to expand...

Hi,

A couple of mics you might want to try on your horn are the Peavey 520i (or tn) and the Audio Technica ATM25. You should be able to find these in the $100 range used. They will take the high sound pressure.

Thanks,

Hairy Larry
 
mshilarious said:
Are you sure it's not your preamp that is clipping?
Click to expand...

I seem to recall something about 132dB SPL for the 4033a. But I don't really know. I don't currently have the pad enabled. low cut and pad switches on the mic itself, both OFF for now.

It could be the preamp. But why would it clip? The +33dB button is off, the gain knob is way down. I've even had to lower the input level on the soundcard to keep a decent buffer from being maxed in the recording software. The preamp is a DMP3. Levels and such are fine if the mic is 4' or more away, but it sounds like it's 4'+ away with this setup. I like the sound of this mic for Bass Trombone. Not so much for tenor trombone. If it didn't square off the waveform at a certain relatively low volume level.
 
Based on some threads on Gearslutz about ribbons I bought T-Bone RB100 from Thomann in Germany (same as Nady RSM3). It was so cheap so I had no problem to buy it without any test or listening.
After recording in my studio via SPL Goldmike preamp I was very positively surprised:
Very dark and rich sound without any obvious degradatiions. The record could be hardly EQ-ed in sequencer without any serious impact on the sound quality.
I take this mike like suitable addition to other sound colors of my mikes and for me iit was one of the best buys I have ever done to my studio.

I know one other guy who bought it and is also very satisfied. He bought also RB500 but after the testing RB500 was sent back to seller and RB100 stayed with him.
 
dgatwood said:
Wait and see if any folks sell their ACM ribbons after the group buy. If they really are 2 micron ribbons, then all they need is a transformer upgrade. (I would suggest the Lundahl LL2912, available from K&K Audio in the U.S.)

Doing the transformer upgrade takes all of about fifteen minutes for somebody with essentially no electronics skill whatsoever. I figure maybe three minutes if you've ever actually resoldered a wire on a bad cable, and most of that time is typically spent unscrewing screws to get the body open. :D

I could be wrong, but IMHO, the Vin-Jet looks like it would have really bad reflections inside the head. I would expect the headbasket to create a really harsh presence peak the likes of which have not been seen in anything above a $15 Chinese LDC. When looking for an open sound, you should be looking for an exposed element with minimal mesh (and no solid bars of any kind between you and the element), not one with the element hidden behind a bloody cheese grater.... Unless "open" means "hyped", I just can't see how this could possibly sound "open" by any stretch of the imagination. (MsHilarious, Michael Joly, et al, any thoughts?)

If you're going to buy a mic that's pre-upgraded, the Fat Head II looks like a good choice, IMHO, but I haven't used one, so I can't say for sure.

P.S. I just saw the ZZounds reviews for the Nady RSM-2. I recognized both of them. I wrote one (I'm the washer guy), and I'm 99% certain that Michael Joly wrote the other. Yikes, talk about a small world. :D
Click to expand...

Actually, I bought the VIN-JET about 6 months ago, and it was the darkest mic I have ever dealt with. Even through a DMP-3 with the gain cranked 100%, run through my Firepod input with *that* gain turned up considerably, it was a muddy microphone. Perhaps there was something wrong with it, but it was not worth the money - sent it back. Kind of soured my interest in ribbons... the next time I buy one will probably be when I have the cash for an AEA of some type :)
 
My RSM-4 is decent. And it's $99 these days. It does the ribbon thing I suppose and took to the Tenor Sax in my band pretty well, and he can get pretty loud during some solos.
 
cusebassman said:
Actually, I bought the VIN-JET about 6 months ago, and it was the darkest mic I have ever dealt with. Even through a DMP-3 with the gain cranked 100%, run through my Firepod input with *that* gain turned up considerably, it was a muddy microphone. Perhaps there was something wrong with it, but it was not worth the money - sent it back. Kind of soured my interest in ribbons... the next time I buy one will probably be when I have the cash for an AEA of some type :)
Click to expand...

That's usually either a sign of too much slack in the ribbon or a junk transformer. Was this with the upgraded transformer or with the stock Chinese piece of crap? If the latter, I'm not at all surprised. The stock Chinese transformers in most of the inexpensive ribbons are pretty horrible with massive HF roll-off. A transformer upgrade is the first thing to do to most of these mics... before you even plug them in. :)
 
I seemed to have tracked the clipping to the soundcard. If I enable the pad and put the DMP3 on it's absolute lowest gain setting. And raise the Delta 44's input level to compensate, it doesn't clip. But it does still tend to crackle with punchy attacks of notes. And it seems to handle louder louds. Most of which can be overcome by simply getting further away from the mic, but interesting none the less.

Anyway I came across an sE Electronics TITAN microphone. It seems to have all of the traits (spec wise) that I'm hoping to gain by going with a ribbon mic. All except the higher SPL. As a brass player, a lot of the character of the sound are in the highs, the overtones. Most mics seem to strip those away and leave a very dry capture.

So I guess the question is should I get a super sensitive LDC, or ribbon mic? Are there any ribbon mics that use something other than aluminum for the ribbon element? Just curious as it sounds like I should just get a single FH II and maybe get a stereo pair some years down the road.
 
Apex 205 ribbon mic. Less than $100 if you shop online. Killer mic for peanuts.

And don't forget a good, clean, high gain mic pre to go with this or any other ribbon mic.

;)
 
I've thought of going that route, but since I'm ultimately gonna get a pair of FH II's(in all likelyhood), that would leave me with basically three of the same mic. Not much use for that, since I'm only recording myself at the moment. And I'm not likely to be playing more than one trombone at a time. Not that I wouldn't try to on occassion.
Click to expand...

why not just get 1 FH/FHII right now, then the other later on :confused:

according to cascade, the mics are sonically identical - the only differences lie in the cosmetics
 
At the moment it looks like I am gonna go with just one Fat Head II. Plus D-Plug, Pop Filter, and 2x Mogami cables. I probably don't "need" the D-Plug for my uses, but it looks like it'll at least provide a safety net from the phantom power in the ribbon accident waiting to happen. And if used with another phantom powered mic, it's needed in that the DMP3 only has one Phantom Power button for both channels.
 
I bought my RSM-4 for twice that on a "Stupid Deal..." :(
 
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