Finding a set of cans suitable for me!

  • Thread starter Thread starter brianXXX
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I use my AKG 270S cans for mixing....they are about as FLAT as your'll get with phones........IMHO :-)

KEV
 
Sony MDR-7506
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Dude.... Sony MDR-7506
 
Buck62 said:
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Dude.... Sony MDR-7506
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Buck, you can stop right here. Or you can say it a million more times. Still won't make them good for mixing. Tracking, yes. Mixing, no way - there's a ton of better choices.
 
For the record-- the impedance doesn't necessarily correlate to the loudness. The efficiency correlates to the loudness, it will be given as XX decibels per watt at a certain distance. And different phones are better for different things. closed phones like the sony's are better for tracking (especially vocals) because they won't overspill into the microphone as much. However, open-backed designs have the potential to be more accurate and therefore may be better for mixing. I have a set of Sennheiser 580's that I really love, they were reasonably priced and have the most accurate sound that I have heard yet. Can't use them for tracking vocals though because of the open design.
 
I defer to your technical expertise, but there does appear to be at least a casual connection between impedence and efficiency, at least between headphones of similar design. 600 ohm headphones sure seem a lot harder to drive than 60 ohm units. Perhaps you could explain further to this non-engineer.
 
littledog said:


Buck, you can stop right here. Or you can say it a million more times. Still won't make them good for mixing. Tracking, yes. Mixing, no way - there's a ton of better choices.
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Dude... you should NEVER mix with headphones!
That's like the first basic rule of doing acurrate mixing.

I even tested this theory by doing mixes with different brands/types of cans, and NONE of them sounded nearly as good as the mixes I did with my monitors.
 
Dude, you are 100% right. But some guy asked about headphones for mixing, and you replied with 7506's (about 138 times). The implication, dude, was you were answering his question. So, what THIS dude meant to say was: If you are going to use headphones to ASSIST in the mixing process, get some Sennheiser 580's, or some AKG 240m's. But not a 7506.

Thanks dude.

Warm regards,
Littledog-dude
 
Littledog, basically the way it works is this: the power being provided to the headphones (watts) is determined by the impedance and the current passing through the transducers (P=I^2 * R). Efficiency tells us how much sound (dB) is being made per unit of power (watt). In practice, the impedance does generally have a loose correlation to the efficiency-- but most headphones provide you with the efficiency number so you don't have to guess.
That being said, the 580's I have are 600 ohm headphones and are not very efficient. However, all my equipment is capable of driving them to loud volumes very cleanly without an external headphone amp.
 
Thanks L. I suspected it was a combination of the impedence and the design of the transducers, obviously not just impedence alone. Sometimes in the absence of any other information the impedence might give you a hint at "possible" efficiency range, even if it's a "flawed" hint.

I've got the 580's too, and they do need to be cranked a lot more than my 7506's. But, oh... what a sound!!!
 
You are right about the sonys, I bought some today, they were used but the price was under 10.00. closed design, fold around cups for those who like to track in that fashion. I reccomend them even at full price.
 
I really don't care for the 7506s at all... "murky" is the only way I can describe them....

I just replaced some of my Fostex T20 tracking cans with AKG 240s.........

The 240s are really nice - and can take the power too...........!
 
Blue Bear Sound said:
I really don't care for the 7506s at all... "murky" is the only way I can describe them....
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Classic example of YMMV! If I had to describe mine (and I've got 8 now, not counting a couple that got sat on) I'd say they were a bit shrill. Kind of like the sound you get mic'ing a soprano with an AKGC3000.
 
Yeah, I agree with Blue Bear on this one.....

I use the AKG 240 DF & 270S phones....they are real comfy for extended use, about as flat as cans get...and can handle enuff VOL/power for my EARS :-)

I recently listened to the Sony 7506's and they weren't as good in IMHO...seemed more like HIFI phones to me...

KEV
 
On the subject of loudness vs. power - If we assume that efficiencies are equal between two sets of cans, one being 60 ohms, the other being 600 ohms, then this means that both sets of cans need the same wattage to sound as loud. The trick here is to find out why 600 ohm cans normally aren't as loud as 60 ohm cans.

Using the power formula P=E^2/R and solving for E(voltage), we have E= sqrt P/R - just in case this isn't clear with the limited characters available, E equals the square root of the quantity P(watts) times R(impedance), where E will be the RMS value of volts. Using these formulas, if you consider a power level of 1 Watt RMS, then it takes 7.74 volts RMS at the phones to put out 1 watt with a 60 ohm load. With a 600 ohm load, this voltage goes up to 24.49 volts RMS -

Assuming bi-polar power supplies (+-15 volts, for example) this would give you a maximum peak-to-peak level of 30 volts before clipping. Taking this to RMS, we divide by 2, then multiply by .707 to get an RMS voltage of 10.605 volts RMS. This value, into a 60 ohm load, using E squared/R, gives us 1.875 watts, at about 1/6 amp. The same voltage, into a 600 ohm load, gives only 0.1875 watts, at a current of about 1/60 amp. Quite a difference in available power from the same headphone output. There are ways around this, read on...

Basic headphone circuits in mixers will probably be limited to the +- 15 volt supply I mentioned earlier, unless the manufacturer intentionally provided for high impedance headphones. Without using a higher voltage power supply, the only practical way to get more wattage to drive high impedance headphones is with a transformer. Then, you can use a low voltage, high current signal into a transformer and convert it to a high voltage, lower current signal. As long as the input current is ample, you can get the 3.16 TIMES greater RMS voltage necessary to provide the same wattage to a set of 600 ohm cans as it takes to drive the 60 ohm cans. (This # is derived from the formula P= E squared over R, where P is in watts, E is in volts rms, and R is impedance in ohms. However, even if your mixer has a transformer in the headphone out circuit, unless that transformer is wound for 600 ohm loads you STILL won't get the volume you would with 60 ohm phones.

Bottom line: If you're using 600 ohm cans, your phone output needs to have 3.16 times the voltage available compared to that required to drive 60 ohm cans. This, as I mentioned at the first, assumes equal efficiency per watt of power to both sets of cans. In reality, this is probably not the case - I haven't done any tests between high Z and low Z cans, but I would think that the 600 ohm are more efficient generally. This would lessen the 3.16 to 1 difference in voltage requirements, but still make it necessary to have a headphone amp with more "balls" to drive the hi Z cans. This is the most likely reason why less expensive mixers can't drive 600 ohm cans very loud. When shopping for a separate phone distribution unit, you should know what the impedances of all your phones are, and check to see that the DA can drive them loud enough. If nothing else, ask the tech support guy (NOT the salesman) whether their unit will drive 600 ohm cans very loud. Even better: Take your phones to the store, plug them in, and try to make your eardrums trade places with the unit. If you can, and it still sounds good, buy it... Steve
 
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I use the 240 DF's. I have ran them through a small Mackie board, an older Marantz Amp and an older Marantz 4-track Porta studio and all had enough power for the HP's to sound great. I highly recommend them
 
Thanks for the elaboration, Knightfly. It's probably also worth mentioning that while the high-Z headphones require a bigger voltage swing to achieve the same loudness, they also need far less current. And just as some headphone amplification circuits can swing higher voltages than others, they may have limitations to the amount of current they can provide during transients. So it seems to me that the best thing to do is try the headphones with your own equipment and turn them up loud... listen in particular to how clean the sound is during transients (i.e. bass drums, etc.) If they work, buy them.
 
Yeah, right on all counts - sorta like I said in the last paragraph. Buying ANYTHING sight unseen is the least likely way to get what you want; test drive it or take yer lumps... Steve
 
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