Finally ready to record 170 children, in groups of 10...mic question remains. Advice?

[Julia]

Hello again, friends.

Our Christmas concert went very well, but now I am faced with needing to record the children (elementary school) for the purpose of burning the all-original musical show to CD.

I had another thread a while back on this, and I received much wonderful advice. The only thing I remain very confused about is the best choice for mic(s) with budget in mind. (Very low budget, like all music programs, unfortunately.)

Here's what I'm doing...

Recording the children, equipped with headphones through which they will hear the accompaniment, in groups of 10 to a track of my Boss BR-1180CD. Then another group of 10 to a second track, and so on.

The condensers I thought we were going to be able to borrow are no longer available to us. Therefore, I am faced with ordering some sort of condenser mics and having them shipped to us overnight.

Here are my options, and I would be most grateful for your expert opinions on the following:

Do I...

1.) Simply stand the children in front of four dynamic (Shure SM-58) mics and let them sing into those and record them?

OR...

2.) Do I go ahead and just purchase one or two inexpensive condensers and record them with those?

Following are my specific mic questions, with low budget in mind:

1.) Should I use a single omni-directional mic with the children in a circle around it?

2.) Do I want a large diaphram or a small diaphram mic?

3.) If I need two small condensers, which of the following would best suit our needs?

A.) Two ECM8000's?

B.) Two Studio Projects B1's?

C.) Two Oktava 012's?

Or should I simply purchase one Studio Projects B3, and use the omni pattern to record the children?

I will be doing this in a small carpeted room with cement walls.

Should I simply hang the mic(s) from the ceiling and record, or should I put them on stands and place them in front of the children?

Thank you SO, SO much for any guidance you might be able to offer. I apologize for sounding so desperate, but...umm...I'm rather desperate! I need to finish this recording project by next week.

Thanks again.

Julia

 

[philboyd studge]

Lots of choices there.

First, are the tracks recorded by groups of ten going to be the same song mixed together later, or are the tracks different songs? You seem to suggest the latter. A few weeks ago for a girl scout music badge we did groups of three with headphones singing into a C-1 and then panned them in the mix. Hardest thing was getting some consistancy......there was a tendancy to giggle.

As for mics, I'd say if you're going to place them more than six feet away a couple of small diaphragm condensers would likely be the better choice and the Beringhers or 012's would both be fine provided you have a preamp.

The cement walls could be troublesome, you might want to consider hanging some blankets to help cancel opposing surfaces.

 

[jet-rocker]

Just remember you'll need phantom power for the condensors, dunno if the Boss recorder supplies that.

 

[Julia]

Thanks, and replies/further questions...

Thank you, Gentlemen.

A couple of quick questions, please, relative to your posts...

Would a pre-amp be NECESSARY, and why, please? We really cannot afford a whole lot more gear. Any, to be honest.

And would a pre-amp only be necessary with a small diaphram mic? What mic(s) would NOT necessitate a pre-amp?

I don't necessarily need the kids to be more than 6' away, but here's the plan:

If, for instance, a song has a 40-child chorus in it. I will be recording those 40 children, 10 at a time.

So...I'll record 10 kids (using a headphone amp), and lay that down to a track.

The next group of 10 kids will come in, and I will then record THOSE 10 children, and put them down on another track.

This I will do until all 40 children are included in the mix.

In one song, and one song only...the Finale to the show...I need to record about 200 people total, but I think I'll just end up having to fudge that and record only 40 or 50 of them in the fashion laid out above. I don't have the slightest idea how to record a group of 200, and wouldnt' be able to outfit them with headphones anyway.

My BR-1180Cd does have phantom power, by the way. I've never tried using it, so I hope it just plain works...but it's there, yes.

Thanks for the thought about hanging blankets. I can do that as well.

I would greatly appreciate any further advice you have regarding the mics and whether I absolutely MUST have a pre-amp.

Boss/Roland told me no...but...hehe...well...you know...

Thanks again!

Julia

 

[philboyd studge]

Just a personal opinion here but the logistics of your project are difficult enough as it is and adding new mics and preamps (and how about compressors?) and all that extra gear into the equasion is asking for potential problems you don't need.

The 58's will work fine, you already have and know how to use them. It's your most trouble free and cheapest option......and I like both those terms. Sure condensers are better choice down the line but probably not now.

Last night my wife and I watched the Dixie Chicks special on tv and though the instruments were miced with a plethera of cool mics, the three girls didn't seem to mind singing into 58's.

Another thought if you use the 58's. If you aren't using for close micing, try removing the windscreens, you'll get a little more clarity.

 

[Julia]

Thank you...as for the 58's...

I have use of four SM-58's...

So would you suggest simply placing them in a line and standing two or three children around each mic?

They will pick up enough that way?

Thanks for the tip regarding the wind screens...I would never have thought of that. If removing them doesn't cause too many pops and hisses with "P", "B", and "S"...that might be a good thing for me to do.

So then...you're suggestion would be to place 2-3 kids around each of four SM-58's...then run those mics through the unfortunately powered mixer we have...and then would I go from line-out of the mixer to line-in of the BR-1180?

Using the line-in feature instead of the mic-ins I'd lose the ability to use the vocal COSM system in the Boss recording unit, and that offers compression and such...but I believe it could be done as a line-in source if necessary.

Thanks very much once again. I appreciate all your time and assistance.

Julia

 

[philboyd studge]

If I'm not mistaken the Boss will not record 4 tracks at once and in that case I'd use just two 58's and go direct in and not use the powered mixer (too noisy). Plosives aren't a problem if the mics are more than a few feet away.

I'd just line the kids up (or maybe a little arc) and put the two mics on stands about a kid's length away, fine tune their placement a bit and hit record.

Are you going to make and sell a CD of the project? The one we did for my daughter's school made enough to get them out of the cassette tape format for accompanyment music.

 

[Julia]

Yes...

That is exactly what we're doing here. We're trying to make a CD to sell. We have over 100 orders already. Unfortunately, we have no CD, and that's what I am trying to do here.

I would GREATLY appreciate any advice you have from your experience with mass producing the CD's for your daughter's school.

Yes, you are correct...the Boss recording unit records only two mics at a time.

Thanks for the tip regarding the mixer being too noisy.

So...let me see if I have this right...

Remove the screw-on wind screens from the 58's...

Set up two 58's on mic stands and position several kids arc'ed around each mic, get the headphones on them, and have them sing, period.

I take it I'd record group 1 to tracks one and two...

Then bring in a second group and record them to tracks 3 and 4...

Etc.

Am I close???

Thanks SO much for your kindness in spending this time to help me along. I'm a nervous wreck over this thing. The school REALLY REALLY needs the money, and will 100 orders, I really want the CD to sound as good as possible.

By the way...that means I'm willing to shell out the cost out of my own pocket for a couple of little condensers if you think it could make a good bit of difference sound-wise. I could then also use them...or one of them anyway...to record the soloists I have. At this point, I have only the 58's to record them also.

Thanks so very much again.

Julia

 

[philboyd studge]

Glad to be of help.

As far as removing the windscreens goes, you certainly don't have to, just something you might try.

Again, I'd record the kids in one big line or slight arc with the mics panned out at them. Exactly where to place them would be a matter of taste as you listen to them sing with headphones on.

If you already have 100 orders you'll likely have a lot more. I do some 'short run' production of CD-R's which usually includes the whole package; recording, mixing, graphics, printing and packaging. In the case of the CD for the school I shot a few pics at one of their performances, worked it up in photoshop and illustrator, took their little tiger logo to print to the inkjet printable CD-R media and shrink wrapped it....they were all quite pleased. My unit cost with printing and all is about $1.50, however if it's an order of 100 or so, I'll farm it out the printing and the cost doubles. I'll wholesale the CD back to the client for $5, so it's not a bad profit for all the busy work. If you are looking at 100's of orders it's worth looking into a professional duplication service.

Once you've recorded (back everything up as much as you can) your project I'd suggest posting some questions in the mixing clinic at this bbs to get that finished CD as nice as possible. Low volume is a common problem for instance.

 

[Julia]

Thanks...one last thing, if I may...

I'm really still struggling with the idea of a lack of condenser mics...I just think that if it would make a tremendous difference in sound, I'd really like to take the plunge and maybe buy a couple of Studio Projects B1's.

Do you think the difference between two condensers vs. two dynamics would be significant enough to warrant spending a couple hundred bucks for some mics?

Also, could you please tell me how you went about shrink wrapping your product? I'd love to know.

I've already offered to do all of this for free...donating my time and materials, because the school really is a wonderful school and they are very hard pressed for money. It's my way of making a donation, despite the fact that I don't have money to give them. I also wrote the original script, including nine original songs, for this show, so the CD is an all-original, with the musical accompaniment all orchestrated by me, here in my teeny tiny "sortakinda home studio"...of sorts.

Thanks very much again for your time and trouble. I appreciate your advice very much. Let me know what you think about the two condensers vs. two dynamics and the shrink wrapping! That adds such a professional touch to the project. At this point, I'll be burning the CD's, one by one, very slowly, on my five-year-old computer and CD burner. Ugh. Oh well...if the school can make a little bit of money, it will be worth the efforts. I just hope the burner holds up under the pressure!

Thank you very, very much again.

Julia

 

[still4given]

I'd like to add a couple of thoughts if i may.
First, you don't have to remove any screws to remove the wind screen on a 58. You just grasp the "ball" in one hand, the shaft in the other and unscrew the ball. Very easy to do.

Secondly, unless you have the ability to play the children's voices, along with the music, into their headphones while you are recording, they will have a very hard time staying on pitch. Try it yourself and you will see. If you can't add their vocals to the headphone mix, then have them wear the the head phones over one ear only, leaving the other ear open so they can hear themselves and others.

And as far as condensors go, if your recorder has phantom power, then you won't need a seperate mixer or power supply. Just use the one on your recorder.

I think the B1 can make a difference in the way your recording sounds, but only a small difference depending on how good the room is where you are. The ECM8000 mics would be a lot cheaper and sound really good if the room is OK, but they will really show of how the room sounds, so that has to be a consideration.

Blessings, Terry

 

[Julia]

To Terry...

Thank you very much, Terry.

If I could ask you a couple of questions regarding what you posted, please...

The room I need to record in will be pretty horrible...tiny, wall-to-wall carpet, cement walls...some windows on one wall...not good. (My only alternative is to line them up on the stage, and close the curtain, leaving a cloth curtain in front, a heavy curtain in back of them...but then the ceiling will be outrageously high in that instance.)

For that reason, I've chosen not to go with the ECM8000's, though they do seem to do a good job for lots of folks and are definitely diamonds in the budget category!

Here's an important question, though...(I do have phantom power on the BR-1180 to which I am recording.)

Would two B1's (or another set of condensors) make a significant different FROM THE SM-58's? Or barely a difference in sound? I would think they would pick up a whole lot more, but I certainly could be misunderstanding what I"m reading.

Thank you very much for your very helpful response.
Julia

 

[philboyd studge]

Don't forget those condensers are going to need preamps and good cords - at least another $300. I don't know if the B-1's come with shockmounts or not, if not, you'll them too.

I guess I'm just trying to say the simple path can sometimes be the best. With kids and ten sets of headphones for starters you've got enough to do without turning more knobs.

One thing I've run across with stand alone hard disk recorders (had a Roland and now have a Tascam) is weak preamps. So the first thing to do if go the 58 route is plug them in and make sure you have plenty of gain, if you have to turn it way up they get hissy. I'm pretty sure the Boss unit you have is designed with this type of mic in mind however.

Shrink wrap? Try these folks:
http://www.ajminc.com/

The starter kit is all I've ever needed. Gives a very professional look and is often the most fun in the whole recording process.

Burners? Wow, how many ways can I say Plextor. Using their burn proof software you just can't make a coaster, no matter what an old computer tries to do to it.

 

[mgraffeo]

Julia,

I'm coming in late on the discussion (haven't read your earlier thread), but I can't help but wonder if you wouldn't be better off recording the whole group together, in an auditorium or something, rather than doing several different groups and asking each to keep timing with the previous, etc. Especially for the group of 200. The BOSS recorder is pretty portable, and you could probably get a lot more of the feeling of the performance if you record everyone together.

My biggest concern is children, who've never had to keep tempo with a recording before, really varying tempo. It's kind of like asking an inexperienced bass player to overdub bass parts, instead of playing live with the drummer. It tends to make things more difficult.

 

[still4given]

I don't hink the high ceiling would be a problem. You really should try it both ways and see. You may want some natural echo from the room with the children's voices. The only way I know how to tell is to try it. As far as the B1 vs the Sm58, there is a difference in the sensitivity of the two mics. They are both cardiod so they have a tighter pattern than a mic such as ECM8000. I believe the B1 will still pick up more of the room charactoristics than the 58.

This is a tough one for me because I'm a gear nut and any excuse for buying a new mic is enough for me.

If it were me, I'd buy the B1's because I think, over all, they are going to provide you with a better recording, but at the level of the singers you are recording on this project, I'm not sure the difference will mean that much.

Blessings, Terry

 

[Julia]

Friends...

Will somebody please make these decisions FOR me?
)

Just kidding.

Thank you all very much.

I still cannot understand why I need some kind of fancy cord and a mic pre-amp if I use condensors.

Roland said to just click a cord onto the mic and click the other end into the mic input of the BR-1180, turn on the phantom power, and record.

What's wrong with that picture?

This is SO FRUSTRATING.

Thanks, guys. Okay, who's going to come up here and just record the kids for me?

 

[Julia]

P.S. Philboyd...

Where do you buy your blank CD-R's?

Gosh, you sure do a lot for $1.50 per CD! That's amazing!

It is going to cost me close to $1.50 per CD just for the blank CD-R!

I think I'll have to pass on the shrink wrap kit this time. Another hundred dollars I can't spare, along with the time to shrink wrap them.

Can you believe I need to record the kids, burn the CD's and get them ready within the next 7 days?

I wonder if running away is an option at this point.

 

[maskedman72]

i will agree with mgraff. how about recording them all at one time? this will save time by not having to do overdubs and it will be less of a hassle for the kids i would think.
if i were you i would use 2 condensors and record it all at one time. no overdubs,no headphones.

but if they must wear headphones to track over previously recorded music i would still go with a condensor.
i wouldnt worry about a mic pre. your roland should do the trick.
good luck!!!!

 

[Julia]

Re: recording them all at once...

Hi, and thanks for your thoughts. I appreciate them very much.

I really cannot record them all at once, because the orchestration is all pre-recorded. So, from past experience recording kids all at once while playing the pre-recorded orchestration, I can tell you that what occurs is a very significant and unprofessional delay/echo.

So...currently I have the orchestration mixed down on my BR-1180 to the master track...so the orchestration is now on a single track...

Now I have 8 tracks left to record the children and soloists.

I was told by a friend that I really must headphone the kids...believe me I didn't want to do it. But I tried it the other way...recording them all at once with the orchestration playing to them through the speakers so that they'd have something to sing to...and...well...yuk. Echo/delay like crazy.

I even went out and bought a multi-headphone Behringer Powerplay headphone amp for this little project! Now I just need to figure out how to use it!

 

[maskedman72]

ok now i see.

instead of doing groups of 10 try 1/2 the kids on 1 track and 1/2 on another than pan them out than add soloists.

i have 2 octavia mc012's and i think they would work well for this.